• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: General UK politics [2]

Status
Not open for further replies.
Captain_Swoop said:
As far as I am aware, Covid rules were followed at all times

As far as I am aware, all donations in relation to the flat refurbishment were made with full propriety

As far as I am aware, no Government business was discussed


I see a pattern
Click to expand...

We do but the weird thing is that is as near to the truth as we will ever get from him. He truly has no idea what is going on around him, isn't interested in it if it isn't for him or directly impacts him. And he isn't very bright.
 
Carrot Flower King said:
And a further point is that "public" schools are nothing of the sort, but are private, fee-paying (often eye-wateringly high fees) schools whose purpose is to enshrine and protect class privilege. The "public" bit is for historical reasons, which also apply to the tax exempt status of these institutions.
Click to expand...

At least 2 families in my home town tell of family members who fought in WW1 being offered officer training on enrolment on the basis that they went to a "public school". The name of the school was Rothesay Public School and was open to all kids on the island.
 
The Don said:
:confused:

They may have kompromat on Boris Johnson but the man himself isn't
Click to expand...


I don’t know, if we had someone like that as Prime Minister you wouldn’t want anyone to find out about it, would you? We’d be a global laughing stock.

Oh.
 
Wudang said:
At least 2 families in my home town tell of family members who fought in WW1 being offered officer training on enrolment on the basis that they went to a "public school". The name of the school was Rothesay Public School and was open to all kids on the island.
Click to expand...


Military intelligence strikes again!
 
Carrot Flower King said:
And a further point is that "public" schools are nothing of the sort, but are private, fee-paying (often eye-wateringly high fees) schools whose purpose is to enshrine and protect class privilege. The "public" bit is for historical reasons, which also apply to the tax exempt status of these institutions.

An equitable society, like several European countries, would get shot of these bastions of unearned privilege, but we don't have an equitable society, being run by the privileged, for the benefit of the privileged.
Click to expand...


That "public schools " in the UK are really expensive private schools is something I knew.

I do not agree with you that private schools should be abolished. I think everything should be done to ensure a good education for everybody, but if parents want to spend their money that way they should be allowed to.
I really want to keep goverment monopolies down to a minimun,
 
dudalb said:
That "public schools " in the UK are really expensive private schools is something I knew.

I do not agree with you that private schools should be abolished. I think everything should be done to ensure a good education for everybody, but if parents want to spend their money that way they should be allowed to.
I really want to keep goverment monopolies down to a minimun,
Click to expand...

**** the public schools, burn them down.
 
dudalb said:
That "public schools " in the UK are really expensive private schools is something I knew.

I do not agree with you that private schools should be abolished. I think everything should be done to ensure a good education for everybody, but if parents want to spend their money that way they should be allowed to.
I really want to keep goverment monopolies down to a minimun,
Click to expand...

You haven't been ruled by the products of Eton.

The whole point of the Bullingdon club was that only those who had been to "leading" public schools could even be considered.

And that they broke the rules because they were sending the message that they were the people who made the rules, not people who had to abide by rules.

And they got away with it.

And kept it into the recent Partygate scandal.

I saw similar attitudes at my university, and it's the reason why I don't support England in Rugby Union, because of the public school contempt for "plebs".

I really don't think it's the start of a Marxist revolution to suggest that Eton, for example, doesn't have a charitable aim anymore and that private education should not get the tax advantages of charitable status.
 
Last edited:
dudalb said:
That "public schools " in the UK are really expensive private schools is something I knew.

I do not agree with you that private schools should be abolished. I think everything should be done to ensure a good education for everybody, but if parents want to spend their money that way they should be allowed to.
I really want to keep goverment monopolies down to a minimun,
Click to expand...

Whether or not you believe in public schools or not, is not the issue. The point you are missing is as follows:

  • The Conservative Party Manifesto pledges 'levelling up' - this refers to social mobility
  • Candidate for leadership Rishi Sunak claims if he can have an expensive education as a 'poor immigrant' so can everybody if only they work hard and make sacrifices like his parents did.
  • Candidate Liz Truss recognises that despite her going to one of the best schools in the North of England - traditionally poorer than the South - she can perceive that children in general are being 'let down'.


I would argue that either Sunak is being disingenuous or he is unaware of his privileged position, which is quite normal. The fact is, his mother was not only a qualified pharmacist but also an astute enough businesswoman to open her own pharmacy. Sunak's father is a GP (doctor of medicine on general practice) and whilst of course doctors work extremely hard with a ridiculously long period of study and vocational training (seven years before even getting their own practice) there is no way his parents were or are poor, except maybe when they were students or even then, I bet they were never poor and came to the UK as rich immigrants with money to fall back on. I actually worked with someone once whose entire salary went towards her kids' schooling. However, the vast majority of people do not have a spare £30,000 to £50,000 per child per annum to spend on an expensive private school, especially when the local comprehensive is free and is supposed to provide a high standard of education.

Conclusion: Sunak has zero plans for levelling up because he fails to acknowledge that only 5% of the population can afford his type of education, no matter how hard they work. This is hardly 'levelling up'.

As you know the UK is a notoriously class-bound country. If you look at any British war time film or even Dad's Army, you might have spotted that all the officers are upper class whilst the privates have regional accents. Can it be that only the richer elements of society have leadership skills and good articulate expression? When you analyse what is going on, you will discover that those at the top differ from the 'ordinary' in that they all invariably went to the same small band of 30 or so of the country's most expensive public schools. You might argue that 'anyone can apply; you can get a scholarship' but the truth is, there are waiting lists and priority goes to those whose parents also went to the same school. Even if your kid passes the selection test, you still have to pay albeit with a discount. Very few scholarship places are available. Boris Johnson was lucky enough that his father worked for the EU in Brussels and arranged a bursary for him.

So how to 'level up'? The only solution is to 'level down' and get rid of the system that perpetuates the lack of social mobility. Little Rishi and Little Boris can attend the same schools as everybody else in future and if their parents want to pay for extra tuition then there is nothing to stop them.
 
dudalb said:
That "public schools " in the UK are really expensive private schools is something I knew.

I do not agree with you that private schools should be abolished. I think everything should be done to ensure a good education for everybody, but if parents want to spend their money that way they should be allowed to.
I really want to keep goverment monopolies down to a minimun,
Click to expand...

Well, if we can come up with a way of buying education which is removed from the concentration and reinforcing of privilege and power in a certain specific band of our society, that is not deliberately exclusionary, that does not deliberately over-promote those of limited talent and ability over those of greater talent, and all the other class ridden problems built into the private school system, then great.

However, I'm not at all sure how that can be done, aside from some incredibly strict and highly enforced regulation, by which time we might as well just get shot of them.

I'm all in favour of all schools having the same per capita expenditure and the same staff/pupil ratios as the more expensive public schools, but find me a politician who will deliver that.

And that is before we get to any additional spending on those with special educational needs to allow some equity of access...

Private education here is not a simple matter of allowing people to buy education: it is an inextricable part of our class ridden, inequitable and undemocratic society; it is the purchase of privilege and power, of dominant positions in society; it is a fiction of charity maintained by the aristocratic classes and their offshoots.
 
Carrot Flower King said:
Well, if we can come up with a way of buying education which is removed from the concentration and reinforcing of privilege and power in a certain specific band of our society, that is not deliberately exclusionary, that does not deliberately over-promote those of limited talent and ability over those of greater talent, and all the other class ridden problems built into the private school system, then great.

However, I'm not at all sure how that can be done, aside from some incredibly strict and highly enforced regulation, by which time we might as well just get shot of them.

I'm all in favour of all schools having the same per capita expenditure and the same staff/pupil ratios as the more expensive public schools, but find me a politician who will deliver that.

And that is before we get to any additional spending on those with special educational needs to allow some equity of access...

Private education here is not a simple matter of allowing people to buy education: it is an inextricable part of our class ridden, inequitable and undemocratic society; it is the purchase of privilege and power, of dominant positions in society; it is a fiction of charity maintained by the aristocratic classes and their offshoots.
Click to expand...

Yes, the 'old school tie' opens doors.
 
Nadine Dorries tells BBC News: “We haven’t had a sporting event like this in the UK since the 2012 Olympics” as she welcomes the opening of the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham.

Glasgow was the 2014 host of the same event.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Nadine Dorries tells BBC News: “We haven’t had a sporting event like this in the UK since the 2012 Olympics” as she welcomes the opening of the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham.

Glasgow was the 2014 host of the same event.
Click to expand...

Oh come now you can't expect the Culture Secretary to know such trivial details.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Nadine Dorries tells BBC News: “We haven’t had a sporting event like this in the UK since the 2012 Olympics” as she welcomes the opening of the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham.

Glasgow was the 2014 host of the same event.
Click to expand...

Oh come on Cap’n, Glasgow is in bloody Scotland….:p
 
The Don said:
IMO the grammar school system worked for the majority those children lucky enough to pass the 11-plus exam. The trouble is that unless your parents could afford to pay for extra tutoring to get you through the exam or you went to a "good" primary school which helped you prepare to take the exam then your chances of passing were limited.
For sure some working class children slipped through the net, but generally grammar schools were a way for middle-class children to get a free education equivalent to one they could get at a minor public school.

Heaven help you if you were a "late bloomer".

I'd have likely passed the 11-plus, I was precocious and my parents were teachers, but I went to comprehensive school with a lot of kids who would have been consigned to the Secondary Modern and their academic education would have been at an end. A fair proportion went on to get good O and A levels and have a successful university career. These are the real beneficiaries from the comprehensive system - bright, hard-working kids from poor backgrounds.

Being dim and lazy, I can see how Liz Truss didn't thrive under such a system ;)
Click to expand...
Re the highlighted.

Or your poor parents taught you and made up for what was lacking in primary school.

2 of my kids went to Grammar school, one boys and one girls, and it was nothing to do with money as we never had any.
 
Last edited:
p0lka said:
Re the highlighted.

Or your poor parents taught you and made up for what was lacking in primary school.

2 of my kids went to Grammar school, one boys and one girls, and it was nothing to do with money as we never had any.
Click to expand...

My cousin got asked what his father did for a living and was he in a golf club. My Uncle Martin was in the Navy for 30 years but even though he was at the Battle Of The River Plate it apparently didn't count because he wasn't an officer and didn't belong to a golf club.
Apparently it was important because there were a lot of applicants that had passed the entry requirements and they had to choose the most suitable students.
 
Last edited:
Captain_Swoop said:
Apparently it was important because there were a lot of applicants that had passed the entry requirements and they had to choose the most suitable students.
Click to expand...


As I have often tried to explain to people, “parental choice” didn’t allow parents to choose the school their kids went to, it allows schools to choose the pupils they wanted.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
My cousin got asked what his father did for a living and was he in a golf club. My Uncle Martin was in the Navy for 30 years but apparently it didn't count because even though hw was at the Battle Of The River Plate he wasn't an officer and didn't belong to a golf club.
Apparently it was important because there were a lot of applicants that had passed the entry requirements and they had to choose the most suitable students.
Click to expand...
I used to live on a golf course as a kid cos my dad was head greenkeeper. No grammar school necessary.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom