Split Thread Akron police shoot unarmed man 60 times

[llwyd]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Turku_attack

When police confronted Bouanane stabbing a victim at street address Brahenkatu 14 near Puutori, he ignored verbal orders and was immobilised with a single shot to the thigh and a taser at 16:05. He was given first aid and taken into custody.

This was a chaotic and life threatening situation on the streets of Turku and the police force reacted quickly, coolly and calmly. And this wretched specimen was denied his "glorious" martyrhood and instead was revealed to be a pathetic head case in a court of law.

The police is usually the most trusted public authority in Finland along with the army. Naturally we have a 3 year police college as the requirement for all officers: https://polamk.fi/en/bachelor-of-police-services

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Heck, a State standardized training and exam would be a huge leap forward

 

[Andy_Ross]

Heck, a State standardized training and exam would be a huge leap forward

It will never work in the USA. 'States Rights' and all that.
Centralised training and standardisation will be attacked as some kind of tyranny.

 

[lionking]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Turku_attack

When police confronted Bouanane stabbing a victim at street address Brahenkatu 14 near Puutori, he ignored verbal orders and was immobilised with a single shot to the thigh and a taser at 16:05. He was given first aid and taken into custody.

This was a chaotic and life threatening situation on the streets of Turku and the police force reacted quickly, coolly and calmly. And this wretched specimen was denied his "glorious" martyrhood and instead was revealed to be a pathetic head case in a court of law.

The police is usually the most trusted public authority in Finland along with the army. Naturally we have a 3 year police college as the requirement for all officers: https://polamk.fi/en/bachelor-of-police-services

Now this is where you are wrong.

When police in competent forces need to shoot someone in extreme circumstances, they are trained to shoot at the body mass, which is often fatal.

This “shoot to wound/at the leg/arm etc” is ******** of the highest order. Show me a force that declares “shoot at the leg”, which I don’t think you will find, and I will show you an incompetent police force.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Now this is where you are wrong.

When police in competent forces need to shoot someone in extreme circumstances, they are trained to shoot at the body mass, which is often fatal.

This “shoot to wound/at the leg/arm etc” is ******** of the highest order. Show me a force that declares “shoot at the leg”, which I don’t think you will find, and I will show you an incompetent police force.

This is where you are wrong.
There are several police forces in Europe where shooting the training is to shoot selectively to wound.

We have had this discussion several times in several shooting threads.

For example in Germany the laws state that firearms may only be used to 'render a person unable to attack or to escape'.
"A shot that will almost certainly be fatal is only permitted if it is the only means of preventing danger to the life or limb of a person,"
Some states also require that officers fire a warning shot before using potentially lethal force.

https://www.dw.com/en/when-are-german-police-allowed-to-use-guns/a-53826205

 

[Andy_Ross]

Found this on German police training in firearms use

Out of a total of 2311 hours of training and lectures
128 hours are for intervention training
64 for use of firearms.
22 hours training of controlling people, use of firearms (simulation arms included) alone, and in team
20 hours defense and intervention technique
8 hours on first aid and restraint or positional Asphyxia

Every German Police Officer has to train 40 hours / 250 rounds per year.

https://www.thomasfeltes.de/pdf/vortraege/UseofFirearmsLisbon2003.pdf

 

[llwyd]

This is where you are wrong.
There are several police forces in Europe where shooting the training is to shoot selectively to wound.

We have had this discussion several times in several shooting threads.

Yeps, in Finland, if practical, the police will aim to shoot non-lethally. It's not nearly always possible, of course. And of course they are far from perfect, they tend to be rather conservative and seem always to be tougher on the left wing protestors for example than the far right nationalists. But they really are trained to defuse situations and almost always try to de-escalate first. Not a trigger-happy bunch.

 

[Nessie]

Now this is where you are wrong.

When police in competent forces need to shoot someone in extreme circumstances, they are trained to shoot at the body mass, which is often fatal.

This “shoot to wound/at the leg/arm etc” is ******** of the highest order. Show me a force that declares “shoot at the leg”, which I don’t think you will find, and I will show you an incompetent police force.

I also do not think anyone will find a shoot the legs policy. Therefore, you will not be showing anyone an incompetent police force.

I also do not think any US police force has a shoot them 60 times policy. But they do it and it is incompetent.

 

[llwyd]

Now this is where you are wrong.

When police in competent forces need to shoot someone in extreme circumstances, they are trained to shoot at the body mass, which is often fatal.

This “shoot to wound/at the leg/arm etc” is ******** of the highest order. Show me a force that declares “shoot at the leg”, which I don’t think you will find, and I will show you an incompent police force.

As said, the preference is to shoot non-lethally but that is quite often not practical, so they will then shoot to kill. In any case these are rare occasions and all Finnish police officers are very highly trained always to see defusing the situation as the first step to attempt. They tend to be very firm and clear but not over-aggressive or panicky.

Obviously this also reflects the nature of Finnish society which really is not very violent though we are a rather densely armed society by European standards. But I do think that this practice of thorough and high quality training towards de-escalation that is pretty well known also by the criminals and the general population, is also of nature to lessen the intensity, fear and panic of these confrontations.

 

[lionking]

As said, the preference is to shoot non-lethally but that is quite often not practical, so they will then shoot to kill. In any case these are rare occasions and all Finnish police officers are very highly trained always to see defusing the situation as the first step to attempt. They tend to be very firm and clear but not over-aggressive or panicky.

Obviously this also reflects the nature of Finnish society which really is not very violent though we are a rather densely armed society by European standards. But I do think that this practice of thorough and high quality training towards de-escalation that is pretty well known also by the criminals and the general population, is also of nature to lessen the intensity, fear and panic of these confrontations.

Yes, same as in Australia.

 

[llwyd]

Yes, same as in Australia.

Yeah, it is quite a no-brainer isn't it? To be calm and firm, not overly aggressive and very well trained - in order to minimize the loss of life. I do understand that the US has a very distinct history as a frontier society, but still it just seems so unreasonably undeveloped in many ways - and in many places. Surely, it shouldn't be an impossible task to set up a more orderly but still very liberal republic? It seems like almost half the society is literally deranged over there, anti-empirical, anti-reason, pro-superstition, pro-stupidity...

 

[smartcooky]

....Finnish police officers are very highly trained always to see defusing the situation as the first step to attempt. They tend to be very firm and clear but not over-aggressive or panicky. .

As opposed to the US Police mindset... "Shoot first, justify or cover up later"

 

[arthwollipot]

I've seen a video where a person was in the street demanding that his wife come out of the house and talk to him or he'll shoot himself. After a long stand-off, a police sniper literally shot the gun from his hand leaving him completely untouched. He looked absolutely stunned, and though it wasn't audible, you could see that he said something like "that was a good shot". Officers moved in to apprehend and the clip ends.

Now, this was a long time ago, so I don't have the original, and while it is possible that it was faked, it didn't look to me like it was. Has anyone else seen this one?

 

[lionking]

I've seen a video where a person was in the street demanding that his wife come out of the house and talk to him or he'll shoot himself. After a long stand-off, a police sniper literally shot the gun from his hand leaving him completely untouched. He looked absolutely stunned, and though it wasn't audible, you could see that he said something like "that was a good shot". Officers moved in to apprehend and the clip ends.

Now, this was a long time ago, so I don't have the original, and while it is possible that it was faked, it didn't look to me like it was. Has anyone else seen this one?

Even if true, I can assure you that police are trained to use guns as a last resort if they or others are subject to threat, and then fire at the body mass. The first part of that sentence does not apply to US police.

 

[arthwollipot]

Even if true, I can assure you that police are trained to use guns as a last resort if they or others are subject to threat, and then fire at the body mass. The first part of that sentence does not apply to US police.

For Australian police, I absolutely believe it.

 

[lionking]

For Australian police, I absolutely believe it.

Most nations police, with a few outliers. I know this because I researched it.

 

[arthwollipot]

Most nations police, with a few outliers. I know this because I researched it.

I think I've identified one of the outliers.

 

[sarge]

I've seen a video where a person was in the street demanding that his wife come out of the house and talk to him or he'll shoot himself. After a long stand-off, a police sniper literally shot the gun from his hand leaving him completely untouched. He looked absolutely stunned, and though it wasn't audible, you could see that he said something like "that was a good shot". Officers moved in to apprehend and the clip ends.

Now, this was a long time ago, so I don't have the original, and while it is possible that it was faked, it didn't look to me like it was. Has anyone else seen this one?

I saw one where the man was sitting on a park bench and the gun was shot from his hand. It was in the US.

 

[smartcooky]

Even if true, I can assure you that police are trained to use guns as a last resort if they or others are subject to threat, and then fire at the body mass. The first part of that sentence does not apply to US police.

Yeah, this.

In fact NZ Police do not even carry sidearms on them*, but they do have firearms in locked cabinets in patrol cars. If they unlock the cabinets to take out the firearms, that triggers a mountain of paperwork - the cops have to justify their actions.


* Caveat - they did carry sidearms in the few days after the Christchurch mosque attack while the threat level was high.

 

[ponderingturtle]

What?? So let a presumably armed assailant hole up into a nearby residence? The whole point is protecting bystanders.

Hence why you shoot anyone who runs regardless of what the Supreme court says that is a violation of civil rights.