Split Thread Akron police shoot unarmed man 60 times

[arthwollipot]

Thanks. Nice to know an assumption I made about guns was actually correct for a change.

 

[Thermal]

Would that be a reason why a gun might jam?

For sure. In addition to what smartcooky cited, really any mechanical device gets prone to malfunction if dirty or poorly lubricated. Since a semi pistol relies for much of its autoloading feature to work via smooth mechanical timing, bad fouling can easily throw that matrix off and cause a jam.

 

[arthwollipot]

For sure. In addition to what smartcooky cited, really any mechanical device gets prone to malfunction if dirty or poorly lubricated. Since a semi pistol relies for much of its automating feature to work on smooth timing, bad fouling can easily throw that matrix off and cause a jam.

That's what I figured, but I thought it best to ask and make sure.

I am a firm believer in the maxim that the only stupid questions are the ones you don't ask.

 

[Thermal]

That's what I figured, but I thought it best to ask and make sure.

I am a firm believer in the maxim that the only stupid questions are the ones you don't ask.

Absolutely agreed. If you get a free moment, take a look at how autoloading/semis actually work. Its an exquisite little opera of economy, harnessing the recoil force of the fired cartridge to both remove the spent casing and guide the next round into the chamber.

 

[arthwollipot]

Absolutely agreed. If you get a free moment, take a look at how autoloading/semis actually work. Its an exquisite little opera of economy, harnessing the recoil force of the fired cartridge to both remove the spent casing and guide the next round into the chamber.

I'm familiar with the principle, but have never delved too deeply into the actual engineering. I'm not that interested, to be honest.

 

[Sherman Bay]

The facts will eventually come out, so we am relying on preliminary reports. Any or all details could be wrong. I haven't seen any video yet, but as I understand it, there was a flash coming from inside the car and a sound that has been interpreted as a gun firing.

But no bullet hole was found in the car's structure. Could this flash be caused by something other than a trigger pulled? The sound from something else? Considering how important this is (if no gun was fired at the cops, the suspect can't so easily be called a threat to the public), how sure are we that the cops were fired upon?

And a scared, unarmed man running away is a threat to the public? Or just a perceived threat, mostly because, you know, all black men are.

 

[smartcooky]

The facts will eventually come out, so we am relying on preliminary reports. Any or all details could be wrong. I haven't seen any video yet, but as I understand it, there was a flash coming from inside the car and a sound that has been interpreted as a gun firing.

But no bullet hole was found in the car's structure. Could this flash be caused by something other than a trigger pulled? The sound from something else? Considering how important this is (if no gun was fired at the cops, the suspect can't so easily be called a threat to the public), how sure are we that the cops were fired upon?

And a scared, unarmed man running away is a threat to the public? Or just a perceived threat, mostly because, you know, all black men are.

A handgun and a spent shell were found on/near the driver's seat of the car.

 

[sarge]

A handgun and a spent shell were found on/near the driver's seat of the car.

We can ignore the empty gun having been found after the shooting and still conclude that the cops acted reasonably in this case, if there was really a flash and bang inside the car during the chase. Sounds and visible evidence of gun fire while fleeing from a lawful stop, followed by donning a mask and exiting the vehicle would seem to satisfy a reasonable believe of mortal danger by the cops.

We could also ignore the gun and conclude the cops did not act reasonably if there had been no flash/bang during the chase. At the time he was shot, absent the noise and light from the suspected gunshot, the cops have no reason to believe the guy posed a mortal threat to anyone.

 

[casebro]

Absolutely agreed. If you get a free moment, take a look at how autoloading/semis actually work. Its an exquisite little opera of economy, harnessing the recoil force of the fired cartridge to both remove the spent casing and guide the next round into the chamber.

Most common mistake newbies make is "limp wristing". Like the limp hand shake some people have. Handguns work on recoil, they need the weight of your fist to reboil against. A light, soft grip can allow the gun to move, so the recoil gets absorbed by the notion. Action won't work. The action return spring can be so stiff on light weight concealable guns that it needs full hand strength to re-cock manually. I can't shoot when gout acts up.

 

[Frank Newgent]

Good guy with a gun could have shot the fellow before the car chase had even begun and nipped all this controversy in the bud.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Several things to note

1. The suspect fired at the cops when they tried to pull him over.

Is that documented or just reporting what the police are saying even if it contradicts video evidence.

There is no reason whatsoever for the Police not to believe he was still armed, so at this point, he represents a danger to the public. If they had let him get away, and he had managed to break into a local business, or a residence........ or a school, and started killing people, we'd be the first ones to be questioning why the police didn't shoot him when they had the chance.

With recent supreme court rulings they should believe everyone is always armed and always shoot first clearly, no need for him to be presenting an actual threat to anyone to justify his execution.

 

[ponderingturtle]

And a scared, unarmed man running away is a threat to the public? Or just a perceived threat, mostly because, you know, all black men are.

Of course didn't you learn anything from the Ahmaud Arbery shooting?

 

[ponderingturtle]

No one cop fired 60 times. It looks like each fired until their clips were empty. None of them are reported to have reloaded, so far anyway. And 60 holes could be 30 through and through shots.

I'm not saying this wasn't the typical, he's black, shoot first scenario, with all the things that suck along with that. But it's unlikely he was shot 60 times.

Why are you discounting that so readily? 8 cops shooting, with say 16 round magazines and the 90 shots and 60 hits is pretty believable.

 

[lobosrul5]

This looks bad for the cops, but I will wait until we know more rather then make a instand decision based on political ideology in this case ie. the police are bad.

Is there bodycam/crusiercam footage of the suspect firing at them out his window, or is that just their story? Really depends on that. Whether they shoot someone once or 60 times is fairly immaterial to me if it was justified.

 

[Thermal]

We can ignore the empty gun having been found after the shooting and still conclude that the cops acted reasonably in this case, if there was really a flash and bang inside the car during the chase. Sounds and visible evidence of gun fire while fleeing from a lawful stop, followed by donning a mask and exiting the vehicle would seem to satisfy a reasonable believe of mortal danger by the cops.

We could also ignore the gun and conclude the cops did not act reasonably if there had been no flash/bang during the chase. At the time he was shot, absent the noise and light from the suspected gunshot, the cops have no reason to believe the guy posed a mortal threat to anyone.

Journalists reported seeing still frames of the masked man reaching for his waistband and moving his arm as if drawing, though. I would consider that probable cause to draw, but not fire. Pretty sure firing multiple rounds from multiple officers would be right out.

 

[TomB]

Journalists reported seeing still frames of the masked man reaching for his waistband and moving his arm as if drawing, though. I would consider that probable cause to draw, but not fire. Pretty sure firing multiple rounds from multiple officers would be right out.

Just to point out that each officer would make an individual decision to fire, not a group decision on how many of them would fire. They probably all came to the fire decision independently, though hearing Bob fire might spur Joe to fire through some kind of reflex or something.

Now, how many shots each of them fired is another question and may come down to training factors.

I kind of wonder if multiple shooters might result in more trigger pulls per individual? I mean, at that moment how much tunnel vision does an officer experience and how are external stimuli (like the sound of others shooting) interpreted? And how does that affect the continue/cease fire decision? I doubt it's been studied.

I'm not trying to put forward an explanation, just things that have occurred to me.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Just to point out that each officer would make an individual decision to fire, not a group decision on how many of them would fire. They probably all came to the fire decision independently, though hearing Bob fire might spur Joe to fire through some kind of reflex or something.

Not really once they heard the gun shots they probably opened up on reflex.

 

[sarge]

Journalists reported seeing still frames of the masked man reaching for his waistband and moving his arm as if drawing, though. I would consider that probable cause to draw, but not fire. Pretty sure firing multiple rounds from multiple officers would be right out.

Mask, reaching for waistband and turning towards cops after a tension filled car chase usually lead to a shooting in the US and probably almost never elsewhere. We have allowed our cops to become what they are.

The solutions are simple:
Immediately eliminate 4 Supreme Court Justices and replace them with 4 Biden appointees.

Have a state rapidly pass a law that gives them complete control over who in their state can carry a gun on their person outside their own home. Get the law rapidly challenged and affirmed by the new, rational Supremes

Create regional police training academies that are mandatory for anyone exercising arrest authority anywhere in the US.

Eliminate the ‘qualified immunity’ nonsense.


There you have it……a solution to our police problem in one generation.

 

[cosmicaug]

8 cops, so about 8 shots apiece?if the suspect hadn't dropped to the ground yet, I think the police are supposed to keep shooting till he drops, aren't they? The thing that makes it so weird is why there were 8 cops. One cop firing 8 times before the guy falls sort of makes sense. Why were 8 cops at the scene of a traffic stop?

Unless police officer accuracy has improved greatly over the years, those are 8 cops emptying their clips (expect about 50% misses so multiply 60 wounds by ~2 to determine the likely approximate number of shots fired).

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Why are you discounting that so readily? 8 cops shooting, with say 16 round magazines and the 90 shots and 60 hits is pretty believable.

I'm discounting it because that's what the chief said in his press conference. We need to wait for the coroner's report for an actual count.

There is no need for hyperbole here. It's bad enough without it.