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Roe v. Wade overturned -- this is some BS

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Warp12 said:
Sure. It's easy:

I accepted Roe. I didn't lobby against it. I felt that in most states abortion law was reasonable, although not always ideal. I am not fond of late 2nd or 3rd trimester abortions without cause.

My personal preference would be that more focus was placed on personal responsibility than is currently the case. Most unwanted pregnancies are entirely avoidable without surgery or abstinence.

I can't say that I am shedding a tear over this ruling, however. Some of the liberal rhetoric being put forth makes me think the action was overdue. Now we will just have to let the chips fall where they may.
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No one is fond of late 2nd or 3rd trimester abortions without cause.

Your preference "would be that more focus was placed on personal responsibility than is currently the case." I'm curious what you think that would *look like*, in terms of abortion law. Would the law say only people who used contraception (or at least tried to) would be able to obtain abortions? Seriously, what would an emphasis on "personal responsibility" change?

At best the chips will fall to honest discussion and, I hope, a consensus on the order of that developed in Ireland. It did take maternal deaths for that to happen. Will pointing out such cases be written off as liberal "screeching"?

My problem with the SCOTUS decision is that ultimately I am very skeptical that the justices in question were simply making it a state's rights issue. The real agenda for many right-to-lifers is establishing "personhood" and a nationwide ban. Absent widespread support for that concept (and I would argue that very few people truly believe that a zygote is a person, even among right to lifers) I don't see a compelling state interest to intrude on this decision to any greater extent than is already the case.

Barry Goldwater agreed, but the Republican Party has become so extremist that even Ronald Reagan wouldn't pass muster these days, let alone Goldwater. I apparently find that more ominous than you do.

Maybe the states instituting personhood laws will eventually put the Supreme Court in the much tougher position of having to rule on whether in fact a zygote is a person. IOW: Is abortion murder? Because if it isn't - and IMO, anyone that supports exceptions for rape or incest is admitting that it isn't - where then is the justification for the more extreme restrictions on access? And if it is, common law, everyday practice and even Biblical law are being tossed out the window.
 
johnny karate said:
A clump of fetal tissue isn’t a human body anymore than an acorn is a tree.

The reason for the “debate” is because anti-science religious zealots don’t understand that concept.
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Exactly. This is a 6 week gestation fetus. I guess it's more important than the girl or woman carrying it.

 
Stacyhs said:
Exactly. This is a 6 week gestation fetus. I guess it's more important than the girl or woman carrying it.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/7166962c2024f8d2e3.jpg[/qimg]
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Why does it have to be "more important" in order to justify living?

Someone could argue that the value of that life is greater than the inconvenience that the woman may endure due to the unwanted pregnancy that she voluntarily contributed to (in the vast majority of cases).
 
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A baby probably isn't even aware of anything until a few months after birth, but that might be an unpalatable time frame, so I'm willing to compromise.
 
Warp12 said:
I never said that.

And did you forget that I was not against Roe in the first place, nor did I expect it to be overturned?

But, I can see why some conservatives say no exceptions for rape or incest...because liberals practically demand it. There is practically no downside, as you are damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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I didn't realize I and others had to barter for human rights.

"You can have freedom of religion or freedom of speech, both is too much."

"What? You don't have the right to take away either, **** off!"

"<sigh> See?" You people just won't compromise! We might as well just take both."
 
Dumb All Over said:
That is what I and others are talking about, a fictional story offered up in this thread as support for the negative implications of the Supreme Court decision, so lacking of evidentiary support it doesn't pass the smell test.
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I suggest you get to an ear, nose, and throat specialist and get your nose checked. Your nasal passages are clogged with ant-choice bias mucous.

Is this 2019 story also fake?

"An 11-year-old girl in Ohio was allegedly raped by a 26-year-old multiple times, leaving her pregnant, according to police reports. A state law passed in April, but not yet in effect, says that victims like her won't have a choice to have an abortion — they would have to carry and deliver their rapist's child."

"An incident report filed April 29 by the local police department reflects an interview with an employee of a "pregnancy care center," who appeared to place some of the responsibility on the 11-year old rape victim. She is "rebellious," the employee said, according to the police report, and "refuses to listen to her mother and runs away from home all the time." A separate incident report does not adequately redact the victim's name nor her home address, even though the victim is a minor."
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https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ohio-a...tion-after-new-ohio-abortion-bill-2019-05-13/
Hmmmm.... shame on the 11 year old for not being 'responsible'!

Paraguay’s decision to deny a pregnant 10-year-old girl an abortion after she was allegedly raped by her stepfather has sparked a national debate over the country’s strict abortion law.

The girl’s mother reported last year that her husband was sexually abusing her daughter but the authorities took no action, according to local media reports.

The girl’s mother has been imprisoned, charged with breaching her duty of care.
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Two births a day occur among girls aged 10 to 14 in Paraguay, and many are the result of sexual abuse by relatives and stepfathers, according to the government.
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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ed-abortion-in-paraguay-idUSKBN0NQ0YB20150505
Brazilian prosecutors said Thursday that a raped 11-year-old girl had received a legal abortion after a judge blocked her for weeks from ending her pregnancy.
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https://apnews.com/article/abortion-caribbean-brazil-thiago-f24f85f46ccf2f5ffd5bf2e87c57234f

GOP controlled state abortion laws are no better than Paraguay.
 
Warp12 said:
"Extremists". LOL.

As for the video, that is not a civil discussion, and the fellow is clearing trying to frustrate Trump. Clearly though, if an abortion law is broken, there must be punishment. Obviously the woman is likely to be part of that equation.
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It is an interesting form of argument here. I never said a thing doesn't happen. But if I deny any instance in which it does, it cancels out: it does and doesn't at the same time and I win.
 
Ziggurat said:
Have you ever even seen a newborn baby in real life?
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Just because something looks aware, doesn't mean it is.

Around 30 weeks seems to be the point when you can even start to consider a fetus sentient, but I don't really count that as a person based on what I've read.
 
Warp12 said:
That remains to be seen. I wouldn't consider it anything to be proud of, however.

You can call it whatever you like, but it is ultimately a developing human.
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Yes, like a seed is a developing flower. Do you give a woman a seed bouquet?

Does an acorn give you shade?

Do people toast newlyweds with a bunch of grapes?

Does an egg get served at Thanksgiving with sausage?
 
catsmate said:
:rolleyes:
Oh look, you're wrong.
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"Asked if she would seek to have the law changed if a similar case occurred in her state, Noem replied: “I don’t believe a tragic situation should be perpetuated by another tragedy. There’s more that we have got to do to make sure that we really are living a life that says every life is precious, especially innocent lives that have been shattered, like that 10-year-old girl.”

Yeah, let's compound the horror of that shattered life by making her carry and give birth! On average, a ten year old girl weighs 70 lbs and is 4'7" tall.
 
Stacyhs said:
"Asked if she would seek to have the law changed if a similar case occurred in her state, Noem replied: “I don’t believe a tragic situation should be perpetuated by another tragedy. There’s more that we have got to do to make sure that we really are living a life that says every life is precious, especially innocent lives that have been shattered, like that 10-year-old girl.”

Yeah, let's compound the horror of that shattered life by making her carry and give birth! On average, a ten year old girl weighs 70 lbs and is 4'7" tall.
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It's just about that child saving money, you see.
 
I wonder if a lot of people think that third-trimester abortions with no cause are common.

Reportedly it is less than 1 percent of abortions, and in fact the Supreme Court decision may actually increase the incidence of third-trimester abortions.

I don't believe a zygote is a person. I don't believe the fetus pictured above is a person. However I accept that abortion kills a developing human. And while I don't have a problem with a woman deciding to abort a 6-month-old fetus with no brain, in other circumstances I also don't mind telling a woman it's too late for an abortion. If her life is in danger, induce labor and accept the costs associated with keeping a premature but otherwise healthy infant alive. Chances are pretty good someone will want to adopt them.

Wagging my finger and lecturing people about birth control doesn't interest me in the slightest.
 
catsmate said:
Well said.
A little OT but that mentality is the same sort that denies the reality of the dangers of carrying a pregnancy to term.
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My great-grandmother (born 1908) had 13 pregnancies. Four survived past their first birthday. One, Emma, died when she was 4 from scarlet fever. Three survived to adulthood: One almost died from scarlet fever at 12 (left deaf), another was injured and became a cripple at 7, and my grandmother barely survived smallpox at age 17. My gr-grandmother was not poor. They owned property including a farm and rental properties. She had access to healthcare. So she gave birth 13 times but had a family of 3.
 
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