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Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

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At least Joanna is still an MP. They gerrymandered the 2021 list eligibility requirements absolutely shamelessly to get rid of Joan McAlpine completely. It was one of the reasons I left the party. Completely undemocratic.
 
In the end, it will turn out that neither TWAW nor TWANW is a magical incantation that will decide every point of policy and practice.

"Trans women are women."
"Yes, we all agree on that."
"So trans women should be allowed in all women's athletic competitions."
"No, that's a bad idea. We're not doing that."
"But logically, it follows: if we have P1: TWAW, and P2: All women may..."
"Shut up."
 
Men who are on certain performance enhancers aren’t allowed to compete in mens’ sports either. Men’s sport already doesn’t mean ‘all men may compete’ and I don’t see a gotcha in saying women’s sport doesn’t have to mean ‘all women may compete.’

Men’s sport: any man may compete, barring certain conditions
Women’s sport: any woman may compete, barring certain conditions

Looks consistent with TWAW though yeah, still a very tangled thing to implement anyway.
 
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Men who are on certain performance enhancers aren’t allowed to compete in mens’ sports either. Men’s sport already doesn’t mean ‘all men may compete’ and I don’t see a gotcha in saying women’s sport doesn’t have to mean ‘all women may compete.’

Men’s sport: any man may compete, barring certain conditions
Women’s sport: any woman may compete, barring certain conditions

Looks consistent with TWAW though yeah, still a very tangled thing to implement anyway.
I don't think some form of "separate but equal" is going to be acceptable. If they are women, then the push will be to get them access to everything women have access to. Physiological restrictions that aren't explicitly there to exclude trans-people, but functionally do will be seen in the same way that restrictions on ankle size that kept out all the Kenyan and Ethiopian runners would be. If it is OK for Kenyan's to trade marathon records back and forth, why shouldn't trans-women do the same?

Trans-women are women, but they can't compete in women's sports, and they can't use women's changing rooms without jumping through all kinds of hoops is not a stable position to hold. You will be normalising the idea that trans-women are women, while having a permanent issue for activism to work on. Sooner or later, Rolfe's camp will lose under this solution.
 
And when, for example, discussing issues which affect both

a) people born female, assigned at birth the gender "woman", who have maintained their "woman" gender identity, and

b) people born male, assigned at birth "man", who have transitioned to the "woman" gender identity

What issues affect both of those groups but do NOT affect people born male who don't have identity issues nor people born female that do have identity issues?
 
Your view is duly noted. I wonder therefore if the KKK was consulted on Black civil rights legislation in US southern states in the 50s/60s? After all: "in a democracy you need to get views from ALL sides so that you can reach a balanced decision".

:eye-poppi

So... female, the half of the population that has been systematically oppressed and abused by the other half for millennia, who are raped, sexually assaulted, and domestically abused by the other half at abhorrent levels today even in developed "progressive" nations...

In your view, females are equivalent to the KKK because they don't want to allow penises into their vulnerable spaces?

And males with penises who are demanding the "right" to get naked in front of unwilling females are, in your view, equivalent to black people in the US who were denied equal rights?

Honestly, this entire approach to the argument blows my mind. "Females who don't want to have naked males around them against their will, or who are unwilling to strip off in front of males, are totally just like the KKK denying those males their rights!" It's such a bizarrely skewed perspective that I don't even know where to start.

So much for females being allowed bodily autonomy and boundaries, I guess.
 
No response to my post itself, then?

Personally, I'm entirely happy to be referred to as a cisman, and for my "group" in general to be referred to as cismen, when it's in the context of a discussion/debate about transgender identity. I don't feel that it diminishes my identity or my "manliness" in any way whatsoever - in fact, if anything, it might tend to bolster a cisman's "man" identity (though I don't personally feel that way about it myself). I recognise however that you have significant problems with the very term "ciswoman"/"ciswomen", but I don't yet understand why: can you elaborate?

And when, for example, discussing issues which affect both

a) people born female, assigned at birth the gender "woman", who have maintained their "woman" gender identity, and

b) people born male, assigned at birth "man", who have transitioned to the "woman" gender identity

it's respectful, inclusive and convenient to avoid writing all of the above every time, and instead to employ the terms "ciswoman" and "transwoman" to describe each of those two groups respectively. Can you suggest a workable alternative?

So if you prefer that I instead spell things out in the lengthy manner above, whenever there's a need to delineate those two groups in the context of transgender identity, well I'm afraid you're out of luck. I do find it both strange and instructive that you're so resistant to the easily-understandable term (again, strictly and solely in the context of a discussion about transgender identity). But again: there you (one) go.

The archaic "assigned [gender] at birth" language is misleading. What the phrase actually means is, "observed to be [sex] at birth". Gender comes later, and a lot of kids don't fully sort it out until after puberty. Luckily, it doesn't much matter before puberty.

A very small number of people have some sort of mental impediment to sorting it out. Those people of course need our understanding and compassion. They also need medical assistance of some kind. So far, no rational, scientific case has been made that any of them need to transcend sex segregation in our society.
 
Can we have the TL;DR? Is Trans good or bad?

tl;dr: Medical professionals who regard themselves as trans-friendly are writing guidelines for youth care, but find it difficult to do their work without politicization and shouting from the extremes.

I found the unlocked article on Reddit, and someone there commented on the Times' readership, which is generally liberal, affluent, and well-educated, but on "woke" topics, the most up-voted comments often say "this has gone too far."

A parent wrote of a 16 year-old girl who has classmates identifying as boys and non-binary:

I was once quite sympathetic to the trans community. I don’t really care how anyone dresses or what name they call themselves. But the inability of many trans activists to have reasoned discussion about legitimate issues, their campaigns of rage against anyone brings up such concerns, and their irrational rejection of the reality of biological sex has lost them many allies, including this one.

The article is itself a summary of the state of play:

Full disclosure: I am a transgender woman who works in healthcare and transitioned as a young adult. I have been following “the battle of gender therapy” for youth/adolescents for many years now...

First, I want to point out this is the best and most nuanced article I have ever read on this incredibly complex and hot-button topic.

Reading the article reminded me of a piece from Matt Yglesias arguing that Americans receive a lot of unnecessary medical care (and expenses), mostly because it's a largely for-profit system. He brought up the necessary number of examples, and said, "You probably already agree with me and you've seen similar articles here here and here." It was just a table clearing exercise for the plot-twist: Treatment options for self-identified trans-children are much more readily available in the US, land of direct pharmaceutical advertising. There are some doctors happy to fill any consumer demand, prescribe puberty blockers etc., whereas more traditionally trans-friendly European countries take a comparatively restrained approach.
 
Men who are on certain performance enhancers aren’t allowed to compete in mens’ sports either. Men’s sport already doesn’t mean ‘all men may compete’ and I don’t see a gotcha in saying women’s sport doesn’t have to mean ‘all women may compete.’

Men’s sport: any man may compete, barring certain conditions
Women’s sport: any woman may compete, barring certain conditions

Looks consistent with TWAW though yeah, still a very tangled thing to implement anyway.

And blade runners are not allowed to compete because their prosthetics confer an unfair advantage. I don't think many people buy that such a prohibition represents a form of discrimination against the disabled.
 
tl;dr: Medical professionals who regard themselves as trans-friendly are writing guidelines for youth care, but find it difficult to do their work without politicization and shouting from the extremes.

I found the unlocked article on Reddit, and someone there commented on the Times' readership, which is generally liberal, affluent, and well-educated, but on "woke" topics, the most up-voted comments often say "this has gone too far."

A parent wrote of a 16 year-old girl who has classmates identifying as boys and non-binary:



The article is itself a summary of the state of play:



Reading the article reminded me of a piece from Matt Yglesias arguing that Americans receive a lot of unnecessary medical care (and expenses), mostly because it's a largely for-profit system. He brought up the necessary number of examples, and said, "You probably already agree with me and you've seen similar articles here here and here." It was just a table clearing exercise for the plot-twist: Treatment options for self-identified trans-children are much more readily available in the US, land of direct pharmaceutical advertising. There are some doctors happy to fill any consumer demand, prescribe puberty blockers etc., whereas more traditionally trans-friendly European countries take a comparatively restrained approach.

That is an interesting point.

Okay, well then, this can be more easily fixed with universal healthcare, to take the profit motive out of the equation.
 
Over in Norway a feminist is being questioned by the authorities for denying that biological males can be Lesbians (with Penises)


OSLO, NORWAY (TND) — Norwegian law enforcement reportedly questioned a representative of a feminist organization over tweets challenging a trans activist for pushing the idea that biological males can be lesbians.


Christina Ellingsen, a representative of the global feminist organization Women’s Declaration International (WDI), criticized the Norwegian trans activist group Foreningen FRI in October for teaching children that males can be lesbians.


https://abcnews4.com/news/nation-wo...ned-by-police-for-saying-men-cant-be-lesbians
 
And blade runners are not allowed to compete because their prosthetics confer an unfair advantage. I don't think many people buy that such a prohibition represents a form of discrimination against the disabled.


Quite.

All of these things can and will be fixed appropriately over time, once a good body of representative evidence has been able to be gathered. In the case of blade runners, it's relatively simple to apply physics to the problem, in order to work out - reliably - whether blades confer an unfair advantage over various distances. For many race distances, when comparing athletes with similar VO2 MAX levels, muscle mass, skeletal anatomy (to the knee, obv) and muscle twitch profiles.. one can form an evidence-based conclusion that blades confer a significant benefit (mostly owing to their higher mechanical advantage and efficiency relative to motion generated via lower legs and feet).

But when it comes to transgender athletes vs cisgender athletes (and specifically transwoman athletes, of course), it's already abundantly clear that a) it's actually quite difficult to figure out the appropriate comparator metrics in principle, b) it's difficult to figure out the appropriate allowable spectrum edges for many metrics (eg testosterone), and c) there's simply not yet sufficient evidence for gathering real-world evidence comparing elite-level transgender athletes against their cisgender competitors.

My own opinion (which I've stated many times here) is that within the next few years, most major sports administration bodies will have been able to gather & collate sufficient real-world evidence to enable them to make proper evidence-based judgements. And I strongly believe that the evidence will show that 1) transwoman elite athletes do indeed hold various unfair advantages over ciswoman elite athletes, and therefore 2) transwoman athletes will be banned from elite- (and sub-elite-) level competition for all sports where musculoskeletal and cardiovascular capabilities are significant factors determining performance.

But I am also strongly against sports administration bodies imposing policies before they have sufficient evidential data upon which to base those policies. For example, if I were currently part of the IAAF committee which regulates in this area, I would absolutely resist the banning of elite- and sub-elite transwoman athletes in the women's category at this point in time - even though I already strongly believe transwomen have an unfair advantage. Because policy/regulatory decisions such as these simply should not be made based upon beliefs that are not (yet) backed by reliable evidence.

We've already seen the UCI (cycling) take the first steps in excluding elite transwoman athletes, because it's relatively easy to identify, bmeasure & compare the relevant performance metrics for transwomen vs ciswomen. I will be very surprised if weightlifting (for example) doesn't follow suit very soon (again, it's relatively straightforward to gather the appropriate evidence for that sport). But for many other sports - including most track & field events, football (ie soccer), and swimming - it will necessarily take more time to gather the appropriate evidence. I wouldn't envisage it taking much more than a couple of years from now though, so I therefore believe that by around 2025, transwomen athletes will be prohibited - justly, and based on proper supporting evidence - from participating in most elite-level women's sports.

In the meantime though, it's both saddening and wearily predictable to see transwoman elite athletes themselves being targeted for personal abuse and vilification. I would suggest that those who are acting in such a manner should leave the athletes alone, and instead focus their attention upon the relevant administration bodies - while also (critically) having the perspicacity to understand that those administration bodies must gather the right amount/quality of evidence before bringing down the ban hammer upon elite transwomen in their sports.....
 
Over in Norway a feminist is being questioned by the authorities for denying that biological males can be Lesbians (with Penises)





https://abcnews4.com/news/nation-wo...ned-by-police-for-saying-men-cant-be-lesbians


Yes. Remember though that this is a relatively new issue (in terms of the rapid growth in numbers of those who are prepared to declare their transgender identity). Some people are bound to get things wrong - on either side of the debates around transgender identity - and the key issue of which messages are appropriate to be taught to children (at various ages) is of course a particularly sensitive area.

Again, I hold the belief that policies/messages in this area will follow an iterative process as more and more evidential data becomes available. And again, I suspect that within a few years (or maybe as many as several years in this particular area) a best-practice set of procedures will evolve. Maybe at that point certain reactionary media (hello Daily Mail!) will back off their zealous anti-trans campaigns. Or maybe not.
 
:eye-poppi

So... female, the half of the population that has been systematically oppressed and abused by the other half for millennia, who are raped, sexually assaulted, and domestically abused by the other half at abhorrent levels today even in developed "progressive" nations...

In your view, females are equivalent to the KKK because they don't want to allow penises into their vulnerable spaces?

And males with penises who are demanding the "right" to get naked in front of unwilling females are, in your view, equivalent to black people in the US who were denied equal rights?

Honestly, this entire approach to the argument blows my mind. "Females who don't want to have naked males around them against their will, or who are unwilling to strip off in front of males, are totally just like the KKK denying those males their rights!" It's such a bizarrely skewed perspective that I don't even know where to start.

So much for females being allowed bodily autonomy and boundaries, I guess.


No. My post in no way either compared or equated the KKK with women.

The question I was addressing was whether certain groups - which by their defined nature are reactionary and bigoted - should be invited into policy consultations. The poster was highlighting the fact that the Catholic Church was not consulted on transgender policy in Scotland. And the poster was stating that literally any & all interested parties should/must be allowed to participate in the consultation process.

So my response was to ask whether the KKK - which was most definitely an interested party - should have automatically been allowed to participate in consultations on black civil rights policy and legislation. Because, per the poster's stated POV, the KKK certainly should have been allowed to participate.

I wasn't actually comparing the KKK with any group in particular. Although if one was to try to draw any kind of implied comparison, the only feasible comparison would have been with the Catholic Church regarding transgender rights policy/legislation. But there's simply no logical way in which one could infer that I was comparing the KKK with the community of (cis)women, nor for that matter any (cis)women's activist groups.
 
What issues affect both of those groups but do NOT affect people born male who don't have identity issues nor people born female that do have identity issues?


Yes of course, the two other groups you list are affected by the same issues. And those two groups - specifically in the context of discussion about transgender identity - are known as cismen and transmen. I, for example, am a cisman (in the context of transgender-identity-related issues: outside of that context I am simply a man).

My original post on this matter only addressed the reasoning behind the use of the term "ciswoman" because I understood that you took particular issue with the use of that specific term (and especially if it was ever applied to you, it would appear). So my post was an attempt to argue why it's appropriate and fair to refer to people born female who retain the identity "woman" as "ciswomen" when it comes to any discussion comparing this group with the group who were born male but who now have the gender identity "woman" (ie transwomen).
 
"I wish this discourse could be conducted as a mutually respectful exchange of evidence-based arguments."

"How dare you attack my views personally by implication!?"
 
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