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Cont: Trans women are not women (IX)

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https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/08/us/justine-lindsay-trans-nfl-cheerleader-panthers-cec/index.html

The NFL's first out trans cheerleader readies for her Carolina Panthers debut

"Our organization is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate because of age, race, religion, color, disability, sex, sexual orientation, or national origin," the Panthers said in a statement to CNN. "We wish all the TopCats, including Justine Lindsay, an incredible season."


Not sure this is an "equal opportunity" issue. At a night club I worked at we hired women as dancers. This is perfectly legal and not discriminatory.

If The Panthers wish to do something truly forward thinking they could get rid of cheerleaders altogether.
 
He is the Wokiest of the Woke with a capital W, morally grandstanding 'speech has consequences' bully, questioning the narrative is literal violence, JK Rowling is evil etc. I would probably agree with his opinions on many social issues, but he has gone way down the authoritarian Critical Social Justice cult path.

Then he said something that wasn't quite ideologically pure. I think it started when Helen Joyce said that we should try to reduce the number of people medically transitioning, and was immediately accused of advocating eugenics (which a lot of people seem to be conflating with genocide - somebody who was advocating eugenics would surely encourage medical transition because it sterilizes people).

OJ said something about not over-reacting and mentioned detransitioners, and then got a massive pile-on accusing him of being a Nazi and literally condoning eugenics/genocide etc. Then he complained about being frustrated at false claims being accepted as truth on social media, with a total lack of irony or self-reflection.

Some of us find it amusing. These people will always end up turning on each other.

ETA. I think he did actually condemn Helen Joyce, just not strongly enough. He said it was 'chilling' but denied that it was advocating genocide or something. Big mistake. Always use words like 'genocide' 'fascist' etc to be safe.

That's just my rough understanding. I haven't bothered looking up exactly what he said. Everyone will eventually fail to be ideologically pure enough no matter how safe they think they are.

It's been entertaining. I truly adore witnessing Brits interact, and both Helen Joyce and Helen Staniland are so intelligent.

Watching the inevitable piranha attack of OJ has been hilarious. The context of the discussion between the eminent Helens was around wanting better overall care, especially for children, so that becoming a life-long medical patient with such health risks (not to mention the harm for those who detransition) is reduced. Neither is actually 100% opposed to transition, but they are quite reasonably opposed to rushed transition that causes irreversible damage.

And apparently wanting appropriate care that doesn't do unnecessary and irreversible harm is "eugenics" and "genocide".
 
Not sure this is an "equal opportunity" issue. At a night club I worked at we hired women as dancers. This is perfectly legal and not discriminatory.
When employers call themselves "equal opportunity" they just mean they pledge not to discriminate. It's not a legal status or anything. And they do or did have some male cheerleaders, so I guess might have some difficulty arguing that being a woman is a job qualification.

If The Panthers wish to do something truly forward thinking they could get rid of cheerleaders altogether.
And then the Panthers.
 
I, too, wish all the TopCats, including Justine Lindsay, an incredible season.

(Except when they play against my hometown.)
 
https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/08/us/justine-lindsay-trans-nfl-cheerleader-panthers-cec/index.html

The NFL's first out trans cheerleader readies for her Carolina Panthers debut




Not sure this is an "equal opportunity" issue. At a night club I worked at we hired women as dancers. This is perfectly legal and not discriminatory.

If The Panthers wish to do something truly forward thinking they could get rid of cheerleaders altogether.

Bet she still gets tapped for all the strength moves and power moves, though.
 
He is the Wokiest of the Woke with a capital W, morally grandstanding 'speech has consequences' bully, questioning the narrative is literal violence, JK Rowling is evil etc. I would probably agree with his opinions on many social issues, but he has gone way down the authoritarian Critical Social Justice cult path.

Then he said something that wasn't quite ideologically pure. I think it started when Helen Joyce said that we should try to reduce the number of people medically transitioning, and was immediately accused of advocating eugenics (which a lot of people seem to be conflating with genocide - somebody who was advocating eugenics would surely encourage medical transition because it sterilizes people).

OJ said something about not over-reacting and mentioned detransitioners, and then got a massive pile-on accusing him of being a Nazi and literally condoning eugenics/genocide etc. Then he complained about being frustrated at false claims being accepted as truth on social media, with a total lack of irony or self-reflection.

Some of us find it amusing. These people will always end up turning on each other.

ETA. I think he did actually condemn Helen Joyce, just not strongly enough. He said it was 'chilling' but denied that it was advocating genocide or something. Big mistake. Always use words like 'genocide' 'fascist' etc to be safe.

That's just my rough understanding. I haven't bothered looking up exactly what he said. Everyone will eventually fail to be ideologically pure enough no matter how safe they think they are.


Going back to the Owen Jones comedy sketch, there was another aspect of this I thought was particularly funny, and particularly telling. Multiple wokies piled in on Jones, demanding that he remove his pronouns from his Twitter bio, because he was not a trans ally. (There were screenshots of this going around but sadly I can't find one now.)

This is definitely saying the quiet part out loud. The public exhibition of ones "preferred pronouns" is a badge of allegiance to the trans cause, and one whose revocation can be demanded of transgressors.
 
Going back to the Owen Jones comedy sketch, there was another aspect of this I thought was particularly funny, and particularly telling. Multiple wokies piled in on Jones, demanding that he remove his pronouns from his Twitter bio, because he was not a trans ally. (There were screenshots of this going around but sadly I can't find one now.)

This is definitely saying the quiet part out loud. The public exhibition of ones "preferred pronouns" is a badge of allegiance to the trans cause, and one whose revocation can be demanded of transgressors.
I guess maybe it was during this period that he seemed to do a pivot and try and sell himself as an approachable, open minded Leftie on YouTube, standing up to the MSM.



The comments on the video are fun.
 
Going back to the Owen Jones comedy sketch, there was another aspect of this I thought was particularly funny, and particularly telling. Multiple wokies piled in on Jones, demanding that he remove his pronouns from his Twitter bio, because he was not a trans ally. (There were screenshots of this going around but sadly I can't find one now.)

This is definitely saying the quiet part out loud. The public exhibition of ones "preferred pronouns" is a badge of allegiance to the trans cause, and one whose revocation can be demanded of transgressors.


It makes perfect sense in the context of the entire movement being a proxy for class. They're telling Jones he used the wrong fork, so he can no longer call himself a gentleman.
 
This is definitely saying the quiet part out loud. The public exhibition of ones "preferred pronouns" is a badge of allegiance to the trans cause, and one whose revocation can be demanded of transgressors.
It seems more like saying the out loud part out loud. "Pronouns in the bio" among cisgendered people has always been an overt gesture of support towards trans people. I'm not entirely sure what's supposed to be wrong with that. It does not entail an intellectual commitment.

It makes perfect sense in the context of the entire movement being a proxy for class. They're telling Jones he used the wrong fork, so he can no longer call himself a gentleman.
Or any other shibboleth you could name. Basic human stuff.
 
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It seems more like saying the out loud part out loud. "Pronouns in the bio" among cisgendered people has always been an overt gesture of support towards trans people. I'm not entirely sure what's supposed to be wrong with that. It does not entail an intellectual commitment.


Or any other shibboleth you could name. Basic human stuff.


Indeed. And what's perhaps more interesting still is the way in which one's opposition to a particular group or cause can lead one to mock and belittle that group or cause on a more-or-less unconditional basis (while, of course, entirely overlooking or handwaving anything similar that occurs on one's own "side"....).

As you say: basic human stuff, I guess. But not altogether befitting of a search for truth and societal decency/inclusivity. Plus ça change.
 
PS: And all of this rather tends to expose the "Oh I'm totally on-board with real rights and protections for transgender people, and I fully recognise the validity of their identity, but it's just this small area about potential risks to ciswomen in certain environments that I'm concerned about" stuff as the lie that it really is, n'est-ce pas......?
 
Indeed. And what's perhaps more interesting still is the way in which one's opposition to a particular group or cause can lead one to mock and belittle that group or cause on a more-or-less unconditional basis (while, of course, entirely overlooking or handwaving anything similar that occurs on one's own "side"....).
Shibboleths also often serve to express hostility to an out-group in addition to membership in an in-group. There are some good examples in this thread--"trans-identifying male" is a shibboleth associated with the gender critical movement, "gender ideology" with the anti-gender movement.
 
Shibboleths also often serve to express hostility to an out-group in addition to membership in an in-group. There are some good examples in this thread--"trans-identifying male" is a shibboleth associated with the gender critical movement, "gender ideology" with the anti-gender movement.


Oh indeed. There are by now various entrenched dog whistles, mostly employed by those towards the extreme ends on both sides: "TERF", "adult human female", and so on. And these terms swiftly became weaponised, as indeed they have at times been within this thread. As I said before: I don't think these dog-whistle mantras are any help (in fact, they're a hindrance) when it comes to conducting any kind of reasonable debate about transgender rights (and if/why there are any constraints or limitations to those rights in particular areas).
 
Shibboleths also often serve to express hostility to an out-group in addition to membership in an in-group. There are some good examples in this thread--"trans-identifying male" is a shibboleth associated with the gender critical movement, "gender ideology" with the anti-gender movement.

I'm not sure what you think the difference is between 'gender critical' and 'anti-gender'. Both are critical of the ideological position that self-declared gender should replace sex (for everyone, not just trans people) in all areas of society, law and policy. The epistemology underpinning gender identity ideology has its roots in postmodern theory, which is incompatible with science and scientific skepticism.

Using accurate terms is not expressing hostility to an outgroup, it is expressing hostility to an idea. The approach of TRAs is to frame criticism of ideology as criticism of people in order to suppress dissent and 'win' without needing any argument, debate or evidence. This is characteristic of fundamentalist movements and cults (for example, scientologists framed criticism of scientology as religious bigotry in order to bully critics into silence).

You are aware that there are many trans people (especially those with dysphoria who medically transitioned before current trends) who oppose 'queer theory' / gender identity theory, do not explain their experience of dysphoria in these terms, and consider it harmful, right? For example, the gender dysphoria alliance. Of course, these people get treated by fundamentalists they same way as they treat other critics.
 
I'm not sure what you think the difference is between 'gender critical' and 'anti-gender'.
The gender critical movement grew out of feminist discourse surrounding transgendered people, and tends to be fairly centrist or center-left on other issues. The anti-gender movement is older, grew out of Catholic opposition to abortion, gay marriage (and homosexuality more generally) and transgenderism, and is more conservative.

Both are critical of the ideological position that self-declared gender should replace sex (for everyone, not just trans people) in all areas of society, law and policy.
I can't say that I know of anyone who fits that description. I've never met a living soul who thinks laws that protect people from sex-discrimination should be abolished and replaced with laws that protect people from discrimination on the basis of gender identity. If such people exist, I expect they are a tiny minority, even among the most obnoxious activists. In any case, people in both these movements take no care whatsoever to ensure that their interlocutors actually hold this position before voicing this criticism, so it's obviously not about attacking the ideology.

The epistemology underpinning gender identity ideology has its roots in postmodern theory, which is incompatible with science and scientific skepticism.
Can you give an account of the epistomology that underpins gender identity ideology? Or tell me what gender identity ideology is, for that matter? Or how it differs from gender ideology?

Postmodernism is a broad umbrella of critiques of the modernist project with very little in common, so it's more or less impossible to say that it's incompatible with anything. But even those who regard science as a grand narrative beholden to naive realism are capable of doing science. They just need to provisionally accept the grand narrative.

In any case, this is a genetic fallacy, and gender, as a concept distinct from grammatical gender, did not originate in postmodernism but in behavioral psychology/sexology (although certainly it has been contributed to by post-modernists over the years).

Using accurate terms is not expressing hostility to an outgroup, it is expressing hostility to an idea.
"Trans-identified male" is not a more accurate term than "transwoman", and exists only to antagonize those who would like to be thought of as women. "Gender ideology" , on the other hand, is largely a floating signifier used to attack people. You can tell by the way you deploy it against people who don't hold the ideology you (haven't) described.

The approach of TRAs is to frame criticism of ideology as criticism of people in order to suppress dissent and 'win' without needing any argument, debate or evidence. This is characteristic of fundamentalist movements and cults (for example, scientologists framed criticism of scientology as religious bigotry in order to bully critics into silence).
Here we have another example of someone attacking an ideology without bothering to confirm that the person they're talking to holds it. But of course, I'm not merely "framing" the debate this way--these terms have traceable origins. "Trans-identified woman" originated in a sense precisely opposite to the sense that gender-critical feminists have given to it, so it's not remotely plausible that this term was adopted or (continues to be used) for accuracy or clarity. It's also widely regarded as offensive (and not just by TRAs or transgendered people). Continuing to use it in light of this is akin to defending the use of "negro" as more accurate than "black", given that "black" does not exclusively refer to black Africans in English. "Trans-exclusionary radical feminist" was coined as a neutral descriptor, but I don't use it, because it's clearly derogatory.

And yeah, people in cults sometimes disingenuously treat an attack on an idea or practice as an attack on the religion itself or the people who hold it. But it's also true that people sometimes really do intentionally attack others and disingenously foist it off as merely being objective and accurate. And another thing people in cults do is deny that they're in cults. So this is a pretty useless rubric.

You are aware that there are many trans people (especially those with dysphoria who medically transitioned before current trends) who oppose 'queer theory' / gender identity theory, do not explain their experience of dysphoria in these terms, and consider it harmful, right? For example, the gender dysphoria alliance. Of course, these people get treated by fundamentalists they same way as they treat other critics.
I'm unclear on what you think the relevance of this is. If I think "gender identity theory" (whatever it turns out to be...is it different from "gender identity ideology"?) holds, I will think they are wrong to reject it, and if I don't, I will think they are right to do so.
 
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I don't think these dog-whistle mantras are any help (in fact, they're a hindrance) when it comes to conducting any kind of reasonable debate about transgender rights...

Tell us who should be eligible to play top-level women's rugby without using the words "adult," "human," and "female."
 
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