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Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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Damion's link works. Actually, now I've got it, I realise I already read it a couple of days ago, possibly on my phone. I don't quite know how this works.
 
There were a couple things in that article which stood out to me.

But peer reviewed studies show that even after testosterone suppression, top trans women retain a substantial edge when racing against top biological women.
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I was surprised that the NYT style guide let this one through, since the politically correct typology is trans women and cis women.

The battle over whether to let female transgender athletes compete in women’s elite sports has reached an angry pitch...
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Here, the writer is referring to competitors who were born male (and went through male puberty) but he calls them "female" for reasons which go unexplained. This is noteworthy because later in the article he quotes an expert complaining about people (like himself) who “conflate sex and gender in a way that is really confusing.”

The writer strikes me as a newbie to this topic, but overall it's a good read.
 
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There were a couple things in that article which stood out to me.

But peer reviewed studies show that even after testosterone suppression, top trans women retain a substantial edge when racing against top biological women.
Click to expand...
I was surprised that the NYT style guide let this one through, since the politically correct typology is trans women and cis women.

The battle over whether to let female transgender athletes compete in women’s elite sports has reached an angry pitch...
Click to expand...
Here, the writer is talking about people who were born male, but calls them female for reasons which go unexplained. This is noteworthy because later in the article he quotes an expert complaining about people who “conflate sex and gender in a way that is really confusing.”
 
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This article is relevant to the point you highlight.

Language, truth and logic - talking to Stella Creasey is never easy

But my concern is in some ways quite narrow. I write about sport, and sex categorisation in sport. Here, it is obvious that sex matters. I have to be able to refer to biological sex in order to do my job. Creasy, then, is blunting the tools — the words — that I need. I argue for this claim: it is unfair for people with male advantage to compete in female sport. I try to give reasons for that view, to argue for it with governing bodies, to work out ways to apply it to sport policy. Whether people agree or disagree with that substantive view, this is legitimate academic work. In order to do it, I have to use a term to refer to biological sex. If Creasy succeeds, I will have to reorder my position. I will have to say that “it is unfair for people with advantages accruing from Homeostatic Property Cluster One to compete in sport designated for people with Homeostatic Property Cluster Two” or something similar. If we reached that point, there would be a loss to public debate. It would become obscure and technical.
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Stephanie Davies-Arai, founder of Transgender Trend, has been awarded a British Empire Medal in the Queen’s Birthday Honours List for services to children.

'Stephanie was the first person to make the link between what children were learning on social media and being taught at school with the rapid increase in the numbers of children attending the Tavistock GIDS clinic. She wrote about the way gender identity, an unverified belief, was being taught as more important than biological sex. She argued that it was not possible to be ‘born in the wrong body.’

'Her work was vindicated by the Interim Report of the Cass Review [1] which echoed many of the concerns raised by Transgender Trend since it was set up. More recent vindication was the announcement of an urgent inquiry by Health Secretary, Sajid Javid, into hormone treatments for children with gender distress.'

'Stephanie’s work on Transgender Trend has exposed the political and ideological nature of school resources and policies offered by LBGT groups. Transgender Trend has shown how these groups teach unscientific facts about sex and gender, mislead schools about the law and misrepresent the Equality Act 2010.'

'Transgender Trend has published its own transgender guidance for schools which is in line with the law and Department for Education guidance. For this Stephanie was shortlisted in 2018 for the John Maddox Prize, a joint initiative by Sense about Science and the journal Nature, which recognises those who promote sound science and evidence as a matter of public interest, while facing difficulty or hostility in doing so.'

I'm a bit surprised; I knew the tide is turning, but I didn't think it was that far out yet. Only a year or two ago Stonewall was making unfounded allegations that TT is 'anti-trans' and writing to schools telling them not to use TTs guidance packs.
 
I'm imagining all the wee pink-haired TRAs writing furious letters to the palace insisting that Stephanie is a transphobe and wants to see all trans people dead and denies their existence and is guilty of hate crimes, and demanding that the BEM should be revoked immediately and the Queen instructed to issue an abject apology to all trans people.
 
Rolfe said:
I'm imagining all the wee pink-haired TRAs writing furious letters to the palace insisting that Stephanie is a transphobe and wants to see all trans people dead and denies their existence and is guilty of hate crimes, and demanding that the BEM should be revoked immediately and the Queen instructed to issue an abject apology to all trans people.
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Indeed, and no doubt publishing Stephanie’s address so she can be harassed.
 
Elaedith said:
Stephanie Davies-Arai, founder of Transgender Trend, has been awarded a British Empire Medal in the Queen’s Birthday Honours List for services to children.

'Stephanie was the first person to make the link between what children were learning on social media and being taught at school with the rapid increase in the numbers of children attending the Tavistock GIDS clinic. She wrote about the way gender identity, an unverified belief, was being taught as more important than biological sex. She argued that it was not possible to be ‘born in the wrong body.’

'Her work was vindicated by the Interim Report of the Cass Review [1] which echoed many of the concerns raised by Transgender Trend since it was set up. More recent vindication was the announcement of an urgent inquiry by Health Secretary, Sajid Javid, into hormone treatments for children with gender distress.'

'Stephanie’s work on Transgender Trend has exposed the political and ideological nature of school resources and policies offered by LBGT groups. Transgender Trend has shown how these groups teach unscientific facts about sex and gender, mislead schools about the law and misrepresent the Equality Act 2010.'

'Transgender Trend has published its own transgender guidance for schools which is in line with the law and Department for Education guidance. For this Stephanie was shortlisted in 2018 for the John Maddox Prize, a joint initiative by Sense about Science and the journal Nature, which recognises those who promote sound science and evidence as a matter of public interest, while facing difficulty or hostility in doing so.'

I'm a bit surprised; I knew the tide is turning, but I didn't think it was that far out yet. Only a year or two ago Stonewall was making unfounded allegations that TT is 'anti-trans' and writing to schools telling them not to use TTs guidance packs.
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Oh, my. I think there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth, and calls to abolish the monarchy.


Although in truth I have no idea if this is a big deal or not. The Queen's Birthday Honours List isn't something that I follow closely. I have no idea exactly who even saw the recommendations or knows who she is and why she is being honored. I doubt that Her Majesty The Queen personally reviews the list. What I don't know is if this is a signal of a growing trend in government, or some staffer at The Firm (as the Duke and Duchess of Sussex called it) managed to slip into a not very important list of awards.

Still, I'm sure there will be plenty of people quite upset about it. It might be fun to watch.
 
I looked up the British Empire Medal, and it is quite a long list of people who received it.



Reading about it did make me wonder about something.

The BEM isn't a title. Recipients aren't part of the order, and they don't get to call themselves Sir or Dame.

However, among the people who do get to call themselves Sir or Dame, have any of them requiested to switch that? And was the request honored?

On a not quite as extreme note, do you know what the position of The Crown would be on a trans-identifying person being inducted into an order that grants knighthood? Would they be known by their chosen identity, or their biological sex? Would a transwoman be inducted as "Sir" or as "Dame"? Has the subject ever come up?

(And I hope I got the whole title and order thing right. You Brits have a very complex system of styles, titles, and orders, and I'm not sure I get all of it. I think that "Sir" or "Dame" is the title of a knight, and that knight is someone who is part of an order of knighthood, but I can't say I'm sure about exactly how this all works.)
 
Meadmaker said:
I looked up the British Empire Medal, and it is quite a long list of people who received it.



Reading about it did make me wonder about something.

The BEM isn't a title. Recipients aren't part of the order, and they don't get to call themselves Sir or Dame.

However, among the people who do get to call themselves Sir or Dame, have any of them requiested to switch that? And was the request honored?

On a not quite as extreme note, do you know what the position of The Crown would be on a trans-identifying person being inducted into an order that grants knighthood? Would they be known by their chosen identity, or their biological sex? Would a transwoman be inducted as "Sir" or as "Dame"? Has the subject ever come up?

(And I hope I got the whole title and order thing right. You Brits have a very complex system of styles, titles, and orders, and I'm not sure I get all of it. I think that "Sir" or "Dame" is the title of a knight, and that knight is someone who is part of an order of knighthood, but I can't say I'm sure about exactly how this all works.)
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The BEM is an honour that (in theory) requires more than a lifetime’s work and (usually) requires extraordinary achievements. There are exceptions like gold medal winning athletes and tour winning cyclists, but it can be argued that these athletes did extraordinary things as not all gold medallists receive BEMs.

I’m just saying it’s not a trivial award.
 
Meadmaker said:
I looked up the British Empire Medal, and it is quite a long list of people who received it.
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Yes, the BEM is the lowest ranking of the "British Empire" awards.

Achievement or contribution of a very “hands-on” service to the community in a local geographical area.

This might take the form of sustained commitment in support of very local charitable and/or voluntary activity; or innovative work that has delivered real impact but that is relatively short (three to four years) in duration.

Presentations of BEMs are made locally.
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Bolded is the basis of the award.

Last point is important - not awarded in person by the Queen.


https://honours.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/about/orders-and-medals/
 
This post in another thread is quite relevant here.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13823471#post13823471

Basically that thing that never happens happened again. A young man, just short of his 18th birthday, "identified as" a woman, went into the women's lavatories, forced a ten-year old girl into a toilet stall and sexually assaulted her.

The outrage seems to be focussed on the fact that the man, who is now 26, is being tried as a juvenile and at worst will get a short spell in a young offender's institute and might escape prison altogether, due to the age thing.

The fact that a man in women's clothing who tried to rape a ten-year-old girl in what should have been the safe space of the Ladies room is now being referred to as "she" and the crime being reported as a woman committing a sexual assault, and that if he does get that spell in the young offender's institute he will be locked up with a bunch of troubled adolescent girls seems to be escaping scrutiny.
 
Rolfe said:
This post in another thread is quite relevant here.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13823471#post13823471

Basically that thing that never happens happened again. A young man, just short of his 18th birthday, "identified as" a woman, went into the women's lavatories, forced a ten-year old girl into a toilet stall and sexually assaulted her.

The outrage seems to be focussed on the fact that the man, who is now 26, is being tried as a juvenile and at worst will get a short spell in a young offender's institute and might escape prison altogether, due to the age thing.

The fact that a man in women's clothing who tried to rape a ten-year-old girl in what should have been the safe space of the Ladies room is now being referred to as "she" and the crime being reported as a woman committing a sexual assault, and that if he does get that spell in the young offender's institute he will be locked up with a bunch of troubled adolescent girls seems to be escaping scrutiny.
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Escaping scrutiny is a strange way to describe a topic that was discussed at length on this very thread. The link you cite leads to a story in the LA Times, the paper of record for the area. This strikes me as the opposite of escaping scrutiny.

This forum has a search feature btw. Works pretty well.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Escaping scrutiny is a strange way to describe a topic that was discussed at length on this very thread. The link you cite leads to a story in the LA Times, the paper of record for the area. This strikes me as the opposite of escaping scrutiny.

This forum has a search feature btw. Works pretty well.
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And? Do you want to comment about this event rather than just the reporting of it?
 
I'm not sure what he's on about. The article quoted in the other thread covered none of the main issues, merely dropping an oblique hint that the so-called woman was actually a man. (Although for those of us who have been following developments, any headline reporting that a "woman" has been convicted of sexual assault tends to be read as "man in women's clothes" unless proven otherwise.)
 
That is interesting, I had not seen that thread. It appears that the would-be rapist did not "identify as" a woman until after he was caught, using DNA evidence. (I presume his Y chromosome was clear for all to see.) So this is a somewhat different situation than was presented by the article referenced above. I am unaware whether the youth pretended to be a woman to get access to the Ladies lavatory or not.

Rather, this is a case of a sex offender decaring a trans identity subsequent to arrest, in order, if convicted, to be incarcerated with captive female victims. We've seen plenty of this in Scotland too, and that these men often drop the trans persona after release. Some have boasted about faking it in order to be transferred to women's prisons, and I recall at least one case where the man had to be continually told by staff to wear his wig. Leading, of course, to whines of the unfairness of it all from the trans activists, because why should "she" have to wear a wig when nobody was imposing such a requirement on the female inmates.
 
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