Cont: Today's Mass Shooting (2)

[Meadmaker]

I don't think stealth was a priority. The shooter was actively killing people, and was already aware the police were there.

If they believed there were still survivors in the classroom(s) that could be saved, actively drawing the shooter's attention away from them and onto the shielded and armored tactical team seems like it would be a desirable thing. In its self-congratulatory tweet the agency explicitly claimed that they successfully "drew the attacker's attention".

It does seem like there was an awful lot of self congratulating going on. Like most self congratulating, it appears that it might have been overdone.

I'm glad they were there. I'm glad they tried. But this might be a case where not every cop gets a trophy.

 

[Warp12]

I don't think stealth was a priority. The shooter was actively killing people, and was already aware the police were there.

If they believed there were still survivors in the classroom(s) that could be saved, actively drawing the shooter's attention away from them and onto the shielded and armored tactical team seems like it would be a desirable thing. In its self-congratulatory tweet the agency explicitly claimed that they successfully "drew the attacker's attention".

I am pretty certain that the intent isn't to loudly announce/project their forthcoming entry and proudly stand behind the door, taking fire. I think most of us have seen that battering rams don't always work with the efficiency shown in the movies.

They wouldn't choose to use a key simply because of convenience, I'm pretty sure. Like I say, it isn't what you see in an action movie...but it seems pretty efficient, quick, and safer.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Funny. When they are doing a no-knock warrant and there's an unarmed black guy harming no one on the other side of the door they don't seem to have this issue.

 

[ponderingturtle]

They wouldn't choose to use a key simply because of convenience, I'm pretty sure. Like I say, it isn't what you see in an action movie...but it seems pretty efficient, quick, and safer.

And if he kills 6 or 7 kids while you are looking for a key, well sacrifices must be made.

 

[Thermal]

How so? Do you think it would be safer, more stealth, and quicker to use a battering device? Are you picturing some explosives being a better option? Maybe an axe?

Dunno, but unlocking it with a key seems about the slowest and most attention grabbing way to open a locked door. A battering ram or ax would at least keep the cop from being right on top of the door, where he is most easily shot.

Maybe officers outside the window would have made sense from the tactical advantage standpoint. Snipe off the shooter without getting too close.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

They're pussies. Deal with it.

 

[Nessie]

So the cops outsourced the job! If Border Patrol hadn't been there, the shooter would probably still be in the classroom!

I make it that school is about 75 miles from the border, so why did Border Patrol attend?

 

[arayder]

The confront-the-shooter-immediately method has been the recommended practice for years. So what's to prepare for?

The idea that a schlep like me knows it is testament to how many school shootings we have had.

It's possible the local cops thought the cavalry was just around the corner and didn't want to get in the way. But that excuse holds no water after a few minutes after which ya' figure they'ed use that new fancy thang. . .the cop radio. . and ask, "Where the hell are you boys?".

It will all come out in the end.

---------
Dope Clock II: It's been 346 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

 

[ponderingturtle]

They're pussies. Deal with it.

They are just following the principle that blue lives matter, so trading the lives of a few kids for one cop is a win.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I make it that school is about 75 miles from the border, so why did Border Patrol attend?

For insane and totally no racists reason the "border zone" and thus the juristidiction of the United States Border Patrol extends 100 miles from the border into the US.

2/3rds of the population, 9 of the 10 largest metro areas, and the entire states of Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Hawaii, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island and Vermont are "on the border" for law enforcement purposes.

https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

 

[Nessie]

Again we can just ask one of the dozens of other countries that don't have a 10+ murder incident every other week what they do and do that.

Stop acting like we don't have any example of sane gun laws that work.

You have too many guns and too many people who will not cooperate with gun control laws to be able to do what the rest of us do.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I make it that school is about 75 miles from the border, so why did Border Patrol attend?

Border Patrol has powers within 100 miles of a border and as such they are exempt from certain constitutional restraints.

It seems not unlikely that they had the SWAT team available in the least time. Given that they got there that quickly it seems like they were the fastest available swat team.

 

[Warp12]

Dunno, but unlocking it with a key seems about the slowest and most attention grabbing way to open a locked door. A battering ram or ax would at least keep the cop from being right on top of the door, where he is most easily shot.

Maybe officers outside the window would have made sense from the tactical advantage standpoint. Snipe off the shooter without getting too close.

I think using the key clearly makes much more sense than a ram or an axe. It is quick, quiet, and pretty much 100% effective with minimal exposure time and numbers at risk. I believe rams and axes are generally what we use when we don't have a key.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

If I am planning to shoot up a school and I can't get a semi-auto, I am just canceling the plan. "I mean, yeah, I'm a deadly psycho killer who wants to mass-murder schoolchildren...but with a pistol, shotgun, or bolt action rifle? That would really be crazy!"

Given that in other western countries these school shootings are extremely rare, even in countries where the described weapons would be available... yes.

Unless of course only the US has angry unhinged teenagers that in a fit of rage see only one way out.

But I would conjecture that if getting a weapon is really hard, combined with a lot of questions and checks and proof of capability they would have time to cool down and consider their actions.
But the freedom to buy weapons ment to be used in combat has once again required part of it's yearly sacrifice in the US.
Maybe it's better if the gun lobby just started claiming that these kids are with God now, as part of old testament peace offerings.

 

[Checkmite]

Funny. When they are doing a no-knock warrant and there's an unarmed black guy harming no one on the other side of the door they don't seem to have this issue.

Ya know?

And the justification for conducting raids in this manner is that they need to be swift and surprising because the alleged bad guy inside COULD have a gun and might shoot at them.

 

[Ranb]

Yeah, I know that, but getting the federal permit isn't quite that easy. It requires a fingerprint background check and LE approval, and states can still ban them. And as I understand it, pre-1986 machine guns are wildly expensive because of limited supply, and buying a post-1986 gun requires an FFL. Not options for the average crazy shooter. It's not quite like waltzing into a storefront and dancing out with an AR15 and all the rounds you can carry.

You don't. The tax stamp application is the "permit" even though it is just proof the tax was paid. The ATF form 4 is sent in with a check for $200, fingerprints, photos then approved in several months and the buyer takes the MG home. The ATF is required by law to consider each application they receive.

The Obama administration did away with the CLEO signature as the most common complaint from NFA firearm owners back then was refusal by the local sheriff to sign. I always thought refusing to sign was stupid; the buyer or maker would just form a LLC or trust to own the firearm instead. Obama's 41F just requires that that the applicant send a copy of the application to the local sheriff now.

It is entirely routine; the ATF is not that picky either. One time I misspelled my name on an application; they approved it. Another time I forgot to sign the form, it was approved and sent back with a post-it note saying I needed to sign my copy.

No states completely ban machine guns. If I remember correctly all but a dozen states allow unlicensed people to own machine guns, the rest require an FFL/SOT. The FFL/SOT is also a routine matter, but the ATF gets more involved in the approval process.

I'm unlikely to ever own a machine gun due to the expense of the pre-86 guns and the expense of the FFL ($200/3 years) and SOT ($1000/year) for the post-86 dealer samples.

 

[Meadmaker]

I think using the key clearly makes much more sense than a ram or an axe. It is quick, quiet, and pretty much 100% effective with minimal exposure time and numbers at risk. I believe rams and axes are generally what we use when we don't have a key.

I think the timing of the entry is less significant than the means.


We can argue whether they should have used a key or an axe, but I think the more important question is how long they should have waited before using it.


And I won't pass judgement immediately. I think this sort of thing should be investigated. However, it sure seems like a long time passed, and if I was part of the investigation, I sure would be looking closely at whether they could have or should have entered sooner.

 

[Warp12]

Ya know?

And the justification for conducting raids in this manner is that they need to be swift and surprising because the alleged bad guy inside COULD have a gun and might shoot at them.

Umm...I'm pretty sure that if cops know there is an active shooter prepared to kill anyone who enters the door, they are not going to simply carry out a no-knock warrant. That would not seem prudent.

Entirely different scenarios.

 

[arayder]

if this conduct by the local cops was as bad as some say it puts a stain on the Texas "One riot, one ranger" myth.

If these cops really did wimp out look for a few to drown their shame a whiskey river. . .and one or two to off themselves.

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Dope Clock II: It's been 346 days since Bobby Menard announced plans to create "Artists Valley". So far all he has done is lie through his teeth.

 

[Thermal]

The police, assuming what we have is +/- accurate, should be made to attend each child's viewing and funeral, preferably wearing a t-shirt that says "my heavily armed ass getting home for dinner unscathed was worth more than your child's life"