Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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When you read a law that was written in, say, 2000 and it uses the term "women" what group of people does it refer to? At the time, it meant "adult human females." A law written today may mean "cis women or trans women," but that is a different group of people from what was referred to in the law.

If you say that previous laws that contain the word women are now to be interpreted by the new definition, you aren't updating language, you are changing the law without passing legislation to do so.

Indeed. This is ancient as well as modern.
https://audiolatinproverbs.blogspot.com/2007/05/caesar-non-supra-grammaticos.html

The legislature may stipulate how a word is to be understood for certain purposes, but it can do so only by spelling out the intended meaning in natural language. The meaning of a word in ordinary use is a matter of fact; and, like any other matter of fact, wholly beyond the power of Canutists.
 
I'm not American thank ****, my mum's Scottish and my dads Irish and I'm in england.

I was thinking about UK law, where it's already in law that you can change your gender after hoops have been jumped through.
Gender is already treated differently than biological sex in UK law.

Treating gender and biological sex differently seems to be the simplest solution to issues society has at this time.


That is not a controversial position. However, the use of "women" to include both women and men who LARP their masculine fantasy of femininity is a huge problem. Women are fighting this tendency with everything they've got. We are not going to listen to you saying "give it up it's a fait accompli" (it isn't), and we're certainly not going to give you personally a free pass on redefining our language.

Transwomen are not women, and you need to find another word if for some bizarre but undoubtedly trivial reason you have some wish to include both in a single group.
 
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Indeed. This is ancient as well as modern.
https://audiolatinproverbs.blogspot.com/2007/05/caesar-non-supra-grammaticos.html

The legislature may stipulate how a word is to be understood for certain purposes, but it can do so only by spelling out the intended meaning in natural language. The meaning of a word in ordinary use is a matter of fact; and, like any other matter of fact, wholly beyond the power of Canutists.


We have just had a court case in Scotland where the court confirmed that "woman" in law means "a female (human being implied) of any age". This was in response to the Scottish government trying to redefine being a woman in terms of the name on your electricity bill or something like that.

So polka is simply flat wrong on this.
 
We have just had a court case in Scotland where the court confirmed that "woman" in law means "a female (human being implied) of any age". This was in response to the Scottish government trying to redefine being a woman in terms of the name on your electricity bill or something like that.

So polka is simply flat wrong on this.
I find myself being wrong about lots of things, that's why I'm here.

The case you mentioned and the result, that's cool. Are you talking about the Gender Representation on Public Boards case?
 
Yes. It doesn't mean that the Westminster government can't change the definition if it wants to, what it does mean is that the Scottish government can't change it unilaterally. And the Westminster government doesn't show any sign of being about to change it at the moment.

So in both Scots and English law, a woman is a female (human being) of any age.
 
Yes. It doesn't mean that the Westminster government can't change the definition if it wants to, what it does mean is that the Scottish government can't change it unilaterally. And the Westminster government doesn't show any sign of being about to change it at the moment.

So in both Scots and English law, a woman is a female (human being) of any age.
Once you get your independence, the SNP will no longer be held back by Perfidious Albion and will surely put right this grave injustice.
 
Perhaps he felt the need to explain his recent erratic behaviour.
Well, if we ignore the trans thing.... often MPs decide that they have a burning moral need to get something off their chest just before something was going to be in the papers. He had been blackmailed for £50,000 over some "photographs".
 
Once you get your independence, the SNP will no longer be held back by Perfidious Albion and will surely put right this grave injustice.


Oh, the SNP have absolutely no intention of taking Scotland to independence. They're too happy with their cushy jobs and fat salaries without the responsibility of actually being in charge. They're far keener on promoting the green-hair-brigade to usurp all women's rights.
 
Yes. It doesn't mean that the Westminster government can't change the definition if it wants to, what it does mean is that the Scottish government can't change it unilaterally. And the Westminster government doesn't show any sign of being about to change it at the moment.

So in both Scots and English law, a woman is a female (human being) of any age.
Have you read the equality act 2010?
 
For reference
https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/stop-scottish-government-redefining-woman/

"Today the Court of Session issued a declarator that the definition of "woman" contained in Section 2 of the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018 is "not law". An order for reduction was also granted, which means the unlawful definition will be struck from Section 2 of the Act and the Statutory Guidance.

The court did not consider it necessary to substitute a definition for "woman" in the Act to clarify that it is defined in the same way as the Equality Act. This was because their ruling had made it clear that a definition which impinged upon the nature of protected characteristics as identified under the Equality Act 2010 is not within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament."
 
Oh, the SNP have absolutely no intention of taking Scotland to independence. They're too happy with their cushy jobs and fat salaries without the responsibility of actually being in charge. They're far keener on promoting the green-hair-brigade to usurp all women's rights.
:-) No politician ever got fat and happy by solving the problems that got them elected.
 
We have just had a court case in Scotland where the court confirmed that "woman" in law means "a female (human being implied) of any age". This was in response to the Scottish government trying to redefine being a woman in terms of the name on your electricity bill or something like that.

So polka is simply flat wrong on this.

Is this the case I was referring to here:http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13735214#post13735214 or a later decision?
 
:-) No politician ever got fat and happy by solving the problems that got them elected.

11926163a6cabfb01.jpg
 
I have no problem with a term that includes both cis and trans women and another that includes both cis and trans men. (Yes, I know some object to cis, but I think I need to use it here to bridge audience definitions.)

But here's a bit of a problem. The terms that have been selected for the above are not new terms that were never used before. They had meanings previously that were not gender terms. Further, laws have been written using those terms. When those laws were written, they were not gender terms. They were sex terms.

When you read a law that was written in, say, 2000 and it uses the term "women" what group of people does it refer to? At the time, it meant "adult human females." A law written today may mean "cis women or trans women," but that is a different group of people from what was referred to in the law.

If you say that previous laws that contain the word women are now to be interpreted by the new definition, you aren't updating language, you are changing the law without passing legislation to do so. Do you think it should be acceptable to change laws without passing legislation?

When you say the sign on the women's room now refers to gender and not sex, that's also retroactively changing meanings. To reflect the change in language without changing meanings you would have to replace every use of the word "woman" with the word "female."

Now, arguably, there are some instances where the group referred to should be gender based. But there are also instances where the group referred to should be sex based.

It doesn't work to just say "This word has a new meaning" and automatically apply that new meaning in every usage. And one should be careful doing so even with future usage as the older meaning has not yet been removed from common usage."

Well said, and rather to the point of the disagreement here.

There are a great many laws and policies based on the traditional meaning of the word "woman" that are being forcibly retroactively redefined to the "new" meaning.

We're at war with East Asia. We've always been at war with East Asia.
 
Can anyone think of a significant, legal, situation where women and men LARPing femininity should be treated as a single group? Ditto men and women LARPing masculinity?

It's back to the unanswered question from many pages ago. What do women and men LARPing femininity have in common that either women and (all) men don't have in common, or that doesn't rely on idiotic stereotyping about lipstick and heels? Why would you want to consider the two groups together for anything other than utterly trivial reasons?

The best I can come up with are laws that prohibit people from wearing the clothes of the opposite sex, or which allow discrimination in employment or housing based on such.

I know that's not exactly what you're talking about, but that's the closest I can get. The removal of those laws is something I would support.
 
//Slight hijack//

Would any "Men must wear this, women must wear this" law pass muster if anyone really fought it?

Again I'm sure they are still floating around, but I wonder if any of them are really on solid ground?
 
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