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Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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We're probably less than a year away from someone prescribing increasing and decreasing hormonal doses on a monthly cycle, to produce a facsimile of menses, as a treatment for sex dysphoria.


I'm vaguely surprised they aren't already. When I was put on hormone replacement therapy for an early menopause the pills came in pink and white, a card per month, with the pink ones having progesterone and the white ones oestrogen, carefully calculated to mimic a normal menstrual cycle. And yes, if you have a uterus, you will sort of menstruate if you're taking these.

However, if you don't have a uterus, for whatever reason, you won't. End of.
 
Scotland in particular is already seeing large numbers of females who don't have reasonable access to rape shelters or domestic violence shelters because those are no longer single-sex safe spaces. Even though those spaces are technically still available to females... the females who have been traumatized by males are too frightened to use them.


You're not wrong, but it's more nuanced than that. The people running the rape crisis shelters on the ground say they have always tried to keep them de facto single-sex, by dealing with male clients separately from female clients. However they can't advertise this or they will be accused of transphobia and very possibly lose funding.

The net result is that although a woman in need of a service like that would probably get a single-sex service, women know what the political parameters are, assume they won't, and stay away.
 
There are a lot of people (in this case a lot of both males and females) who go to one end or the other - either behavioral differences between the sexes are completely created by society... or they're completely created by evolution.

Reality is that we're NOT blank slates, and there ARE differences in innate behavioral tendencies between males and females. It's reasonable that there should be, because we're a sexually dimorphic species where females bear almost the entire cost of reproduction due to the length of gestation and the length of immaturity in our offspring.

Males being bigger, faster, stronger, more violent, and more aggressive are all evolutionary adaptations which have historically served us well. Females being smaller, having higher fat content, being more collaborative and being more nurturing toward children are also evolutionary adaptations which have served us well.

But we're ALSO heavily influenced by social influences, and THOSE have a large impact as well.
I 100% agree with all this.

Males being expected to have leadership skills, be decisive, and to not show emotional vulnerability is probably NOT an evolutionary result, but a social structure. Women being expected to be subservient, soft-spoken, and not to have strong opinions is also probably NOT an evolutionary result.
This is where I think things get tricky. Yes, these things are largely socially defined. That doesn't mean that we can pick and choose whatever properties we want for men and women, or have no socially defined male and female properties at all and have a working society that lasts into the future.

All these characteristics are inter-related and are ultimately built on basic biological differences. Maybe you could socially engineer your way to a society where women were more aggressive and risk taking than men, but you are going to be rolling a stone uphill there and the stone is going to roll back down unless you keep pushing. There is going to be a tendency for socially defined differences to build on top of, reinforce, and exacerbate physical differences.

These characteristics are both inter-related within a particular sex, or gender, and between them. If men are stronger, women need to be attracted to strength and all the different socially defined ways men demonstrate strength. You can't change one sex without it having a knock on effect on the other.

You also have the issue, that these socially defined gender differences come out of a process of natural selection. Men whose way of being male doesn't result in children tend not to pass on that way of being male, socially defined though it is. The same with women. If people's ways of being male and female don't result in a strong and productive society, then the society collapses. This is another version of the Burkean argument about the French Revolution.

Socially defined is not the same as something being a consequence free choice.

Take a classic example of this, the idea that we need women to be equally represented in the workplace and career and so forth is how you define the success of a woman just as much as a man. Well, women delay settling down until their career is established, so you've raised the age that people are having children. Women still want a man who is more successful than them and able to provide for them, so you end up with a lot of disappointed women at the top end and a lot of sad lonely man at the bottom. Meanwhile society is no longer structured around the idea of a man supporting a whole household on one salary, so to maintain their lifestyle the woman goes back to work and all of a sudden you have less than replacement birth rates.

Having an idea of a liberal society where everybody is equal and there are no stereotypes about men and women, and there is nothing unusual about a female CEO or a male nanny is terrific, but I think it's far from clear that that doesn't lead to some kind of collapse.

Honestly, if men were what they were 50+ years ago in terms of feeling it was their responsibility to protect women, you would not have uninvited trans-women in female changing rooms. Maybe you like men having stepped back from these old fashioned attitudes? OK, but there is a price to be paid and a great many unintended consequences.
 
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I'm vaguely surprised they aren't already. When I was put on hormone replacement therapy for an early menopause the pills came in pink and white, a card per month, with the pink ones having progesterone and the white ones oestrogen, carefully calculated to mimic a normal menstrual cycle. And yes, if you have a uterus, you will sort of menstruate if you're taking these.

However, if you don't have a uterus, for whatever reason, you won't. End of.
There are more things in heaven and Earth, Rolfe, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. If you look, the ever busy minds of the autogynephiles have come up with ways to simulate even this. The less disgusting methods just involve food colouring.
 
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Oh, I found out about all that ages ago. But it's fake. The cochineal isn't actually coming out of them.

One slight concern is the number of transwomen claiming to have all the symptoms of a period, except the actual bleeding. "Oh, I'm on my period, I have period pains!" Well, period pains are caused by the uterus contracting. I remember once, when I was curled up in agony saying "It's OK, it always goes away after two hours, I'll be fine," my mother explaining to my concerned father that it was just the same as labour pains.

It's bloody agony. We put up with it because we know it's natural, there's nothing actually wrong, and it will go away. If a man, who has no uterus, is experiencing pain like that, there is something seriously wrong and he needs to see a doctor. One day some man is going to get off on having "period pains" that turn out to be a burst appendix or something.

Or a strangulated testicle as a result of "tucking", maybe?
 
Oh, I found out about all that ages ago. But it's fake. The cochineal isn't actually coming out of them.

One slight concern is the number of transwomen claiming to have all the symptoms of a period, except the actual bleeding. "Oh, I'm on my period, I have period pains!" Well, period pains are caused by the uterus contracting. I remember once, when I was curled up in agony saying "It's OK, it always goes away after two hours, I'll be fine," my mother explaining to my concerned father that it was just the same as labour pains.

It's bloody agony. We put up with it because we know it's natural, there's nothing actually wrong, and it will go away. If a man, who has no uterus, is experiencing pain like that, there is something seriously wrong and he needs to see a doctor. One day some man is going to get off on having "period pains" that turn out to be a burst appendix or something.

Or a strangulated testicle as a result of "tucking", maybe?
It makes me think of the rabbit woman of godalming.
 
The two hour thing was slightly weird. I mean you could have set your watch by it. 10 am till 12 noon, give or take not a lot.

Other women have not described the same thing, so I guess we're all different. Some spoke of pain that went on for several days. All I can say is, I couldn't have stood what I experienced for several days. Hearing these stories made me very glad that I could watch the clock and not the calendar, and I'd feel fine in the afternoon.
 
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Earlier today.


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I saw that. The girls got the fourth-placed girl on the podium and posed for that. I think it was a meeting where the school didn't have quite so much influence on them. They're getting braver.
 
In the wild, ball pythons kill mice a lot. Mice are one of their common sources of food, and they kill them frequently.

In the wild, a mouse will sometimes kill a ball python. It's uncommon, but it's been known to happen in rare circumstances.

Is it unfair to say that mice are at risk from ball pythons, and to disregard the risk to pythons from mice?

That's the situation here. So let's get some sticking points nailed down: Not all males are sexually predatory, not all males have paraphilias. Not all males are transgender. Not all transgender identified males are autogynephilic.
Now, let's use the term "Cross-Sex Self Attracted" to cover both autogeynephilia and autoandrophilia. We'll abbreviate it as CSSA.

CSSA has only been documented in males. It is hypothetically possible in females, but it hasn't been documented. To talk about the impact of CSSA on females is completely reasonable. To spend equivalent time talking about the impact of CSSA on males is irrational, given that it has never been documents and doesn't seem to be occurring in the real world.
Thx for the highlighted, I agree.

Regarding CSSA there is very little data in general, autoandrophilia has next to no relevent data,
autogeynephilia has more data, but seems to be from one source only.
 
You meant to include females of species other than the human species, you mean?
It's not hard,
I think male female are biologically determined,

I think man woman are gender labels and societal constructs, people shouldn't have to follow them,
I think transpeople are trying to fit in with said constructs instead of saying no to them like the other lbg letters do.
It disappoints me.
 
You think. You don't get to redefine words and then say, I win because you can't express yourself any more. You don't get to redefine words at all, actually.

In particular, you don't get to appropriate the word woman and apply it to some males.

Woman is not a costume and it's not makeup and it's not a feeling in anyone's head. It's not psychotherapy for men with problems either.

Being a woman is the biological reality of being an adult female of the human species. The word is taken. You can't have it and men can't have it. Find other words. It's not hard.

Being female is a property of mares, ewes, bitches, cows, sows, does, need I go on. Being human is being a member of the species homo sapiens. You do not get to take the word for a female member of the species homo sapiens away from us.
 
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Today's episode of the 'Gender: A wider lens' podcast features an interview with Dr Anne Lawrence on the subject of autogynephilia.


Somewhat amazingly, I actually listened to all that. I did not realise AGP could manifest in such young boys, but I have to defer to someone it happened to.

One problem of helping any of these people is proper diagnosis. He is suggesting quite radical treatment. If the diagnosis is not 100% certain this is a recipe for even more child abuse. Even if it is, his suggestion is speculative, based only on his feelings, and if tried even with 100% diagnostic certainty would be completely exprimental. (I think it wouldn't work.)
 
You think. You don't get to redefine words and then say, I win because you can't express yourself any more. You don't get to redefine words at all, actually.

In particular, you don't get to appropriate the word woman and apply it to some males.

Woman is not a costume and it's not makeup and it's not a feeling in anyone's head. It's not psychotherapy for men with problems either.

Being a woman is the biological reality of being an adult female of the human species. The word is taken. You can't have it and men can't have it. Find other words. It's not hard.

Being female is a property of mares, ewes, bitches, cows, sows, does, need I go on. Being human is being a member of the species homo sapiens. You do not get to take the word for a female member of the species homo sapiens away from us.
I disagree, Your focus is women but I think gender, whether man or woman, is indeed something that is put on people like a costume and they're told they have to apply comply.

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this win and lose competition thing is weird, stop putting that on me.
 
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What you think about the meaning of words is not important. A woman is an adult female of the species Homo sapiens. Find another word for whatever nebulous, ill-defined concept it is that you want to discuss. "Woman" is taken. By adult females of the species Homo sapiens.
 
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I disagree, Your focus is women but I think gender, whether man or woman, is indeed something that is put on people like a costume and they're told they have to apply.
You don't have to apply a particular gender expression. There have been gender non-conforming people going back since forever. Radical freedom etc..... The mania today is to "normalise" gender nonconformity.

While you don't have to conform to society's expectations, all societies have expectations and assumptions and cultural norms for their members. Name a functioning society that has ever existed where there aren't roles and norms that there is some level of expectation that you fit into and some small percentage of people don't. Again, what you are rejecting is the structure of reality. One can perhaps live for a while, and even organise society in defiance of reality, but I think there will be a price to be paid.

The alternative to a society with norms is a tower of babel like impossible to navigate chaos. Ultimately, if the current set of norms are utterly torn down, you will see another set of norms rise up to take their place..... and maybe they will be worse ones because they will have to be invented and unnatural, and therefore will have to be imposed with far more compulsion. It's like you want us to return to some Rousseau fantasy of what man would be like in a state of nature, freed from the demands of society.
 
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