Trans women are not women (Part 8)

[Dismember]

Thanks for that information. I have been edified.

Puppycow, if you’re still reading, you might find this interesting.

https://jessesingal.substack.com/p/how-science-based-medicine-botched

This is a response to/commentary on what was an ongoing kerfuffle at Steven Novella’s and Gorski’s website, Science Based Medicine, this past July.

Dr Harriet Hall had been a frequent author/contributor to the SBM website until she wrote a positive preliminary review of Irreversible Damage, by Abigail Shrier. Gorski & Novella removed Hall’s review and proceeded to leave a series of responses (despite having already removed it).

Singal’s piece is a critique of Novella’s and Gorksi’s article, and at the time it was a very thorough overview of the current evidence and consensus on health care for dysphoric youth. If I’m not mistaken, some new data is available now but all of it continues to support the cautious waiting and watching approach, as opposed to treating minors with puberty blockers and opposite-sex hormones. The article is focused on “gender affirming care” for youth but Singal references and discusses a lot of the data for trans adults, too.

 

[shuttlt]

It seems like you both misunderstood my point, and disagreed with it. Those two things combined to put you in vehement agreement with me, and to make a very effective argument in favor of my point.

Well, if we both agree, then I'm sure you are right.

 

[Rolfe]

This is interesting. Video of "Lia" Thomas swimming. The commentators are pointing out that he appears to be using only his arms and not his legs at all. The idea being not to win by too embarrassing a margin.

https://twitter.com/GenX_GC_Femme/status/1504518093950918667

 

[theprestige]

This is interesting. Video of "Lia" Thomas swimming. The commentators are pointing out that he appears to be using only his arms and not his legs at all. The idea being not to win by too embarrassing a margin.

https://twitter.com/GenX_GC_Femme/status/1504518093950918667

Cue 2-3 pages of inane "TERFs be hatin'" noise to jam out this signal, because trans-activists cannot actually address any of the serious controversies.

 

[Rolfe]

A separate thread, I'm not sure it was about the same event, descrobes a senior college swimmer crying down the phone because this was her last chance to qualify and she'd come 17th, when only 16 go through to the final.

 

[p0lka]

AGP is necessarily a male affliction.

Yes.
There is a female affliction that is remarkably similar, but that's not being used to paint everyone with the same brush like the male version is.

edit:
I have to address some ****

I'm not a trans activist, I've made my position clear in previous posts like years ago, **** this thread is long.

The imbalance and unequalness* with people is what I notice and reply to.

*not a real word but it should be.

 

[Rolfe]

What female affliction would that be then, since autoandrophilia is believed to be vanishingly rare?

Where are the hordes of women dressing up as bad pornified fantasies of men and demanding legal, unchallengeable access to male spaces so they can get off on listening to men pee and change their underwear? And talking over and vilifying any men who object? And insisting they're the most marginalised group of all time and only their feelings matter?

 

[Meadmaker]

A separate thread, I'm not sure it was about the same event, descrobes a senior college swimmer crying down the phone because this was her last chance to qualify and she'd come 17th, when only 16 go through to the final.

Some people have a "Who cares? There's no money involved." attitude toward girls like that.

Sometimes they try to disguise that attitude, or say "It's not the money, it's......" whatever. The point is that that woman is insufficiently significant for them to care about.

 

[shuttlt]

Yes.
There is a female affliction that is remarkably similar, but that's not being used to paint everyone with the same brush like the male version is.

edit:
I have to address some ****

I'm not a trans activist, I've made my position clear in previous posts like years ago, **** this thread is long.

The imbalance and unequalness* with people is what I notice and reply to.

*not a real word but it should be.

I think the issue is that you and Rolfe are coming at this from completely different ways of looking at the world. You are looking for logical consistency in Rolfe's concerns between men getting off dressing as women and women getting off dressing as men, since they are equivalent situations - at least when reduced to a logic problem. That is to take the argument into the realm of platonic ideals. I think Rolfe is coming at this from perceiving real world harm and being concerned about it. From the non-Platonic perspective, it seems odd to expect somebody to be concerned about harm that they aren't sure exists in order to maintain some kind of ideological symmetry.

 

[p0lka]

What female affliction would that be then, since autoandrophilia is believed to be vanishingly rare?

The answer is in your question, so you are aware of it.

Where are the hordes of women dressing up as bad pornified fantasies of men and demanding legal, unchallengeable access to male spaces so they can get off on listening to men pee and change their underwear? And talking over and vilifying any men who object? And insisting they're the most marginalised group of all time and only their feelings matter?

I don't know how to answer that.

edit:
you are assuming every male that goes trans is dodgy, I disagree.

females that go trans? are they all tarred with the same brush

 

[shuttlt]

Some people have a "Who cares? There's no money involved." attitude toward girls like that.

Sometimes they try to disguise that attitude, or say "It's not the money, it's......" whatever. The point is that that woman is insufficiently significant for them to care about.

We can not have progress without sacrifice. When we have built our New Jerusalem nobody is going to count the cost.

 

[Rolfe]

The answer is in your question, so you are aware of it.

I don't know how to answer that.
edit:
you are assuming every male that goes trans is dodgy, I disagree.

"Autoandrophilia" is a word that was coined as a hypothetical. Nobody has yet found an actual case as far as I know, although of course proving a negative is notiriously difficult. Psychologists and sexologists declare that those women who want to be male to engage in fake-homosexual sex with males have a different diagnosis.

The men usually laugh at them and tell them to go away. Men's facilities are not under threat by aggressive women LARPing a pornified version of masculinity so they can get off on listening to men pee. I doubt if there are any such women at all. So I really don't know what point you think you're making.

Having seen your edit, please stop making assumptions about what I think. I think "dodgy" is a nebulous term, so that's not something that can be answered. If there are any non-dodgy ones, we have no way to know which these are, so they can all stay out. The basic principle of "no man who wants to be in a female-only single-sex space should be allowed to be there" is a pretty good one.

 

[shuttlt]

I believe there are reported links between autism and both transgenderism and autogynephilia. Isn't autism often described as some kind of extreme male brain, while cluster-B personality disorders are extreme female brain? I wonder why we would expect these things to appear at equivalent rates in equivalent forms in each sex.

 

[p0lka]

I think the issue is that you and Rolfe are coming at this from completely different ways of looking at the world. You are looking for logical consistency in Rolfe's concerns between men getting off dressing as women and women getting off dressing as men, since they are equivalent situations - at least when reduced to a logic problem. That is to take the argument into the realm of platonic ideals. I think Rolfe is coming at this from perceiving real world harm and being concerned about it. From the non-Platonic perspective, it seems odd to expect somebody to be concerned about harm that they aren't sure exists in order to maintain some kind of ideological symmetry.

Yeah I agree it's vastly different perspectives. I do think one perspective is unfair.

 

[Rolfe]

I believe there are reported links between autism and both transgenderism and autogynephilia. Isn't autism often described as some kind of extreme male brain, while cluster-B personality disorders are extreme female brain? I wonder why we would expect these things to appear at equivalent rates in equivalent forms in each sex.

Not that I know of. I have not seen any link mentioned between autism and AGP. I have seen a lot of concern that autistic youngsters are very much over-represented among presentations with rapid onset gender dysphoria (ROGD), especially autistic girls.

I don't think this "extreme male/female brain" idea holds water at all.

 

[Rolfe]

Yeah I agree it's vastly different perspectives. I do think one perspective is unfair.

And I think that to counter every example of bad behaviour perpetrated by males with "but what about the women who do that?" when there aren't any women who do that, is perverse.

What actual, on the ground, practical threat are transmen posing to men? If there is one, and men aren't able to deal with it, let's address that. Constantly claiming women are doing things they quite clearly aren't doing is getting boring.

 

[shuttlt]

Not that I know of. I have not seen any link mentioned between autism and AGP. I have seen a lot of concern that autistic youngsters are very much over-represented among presentations with rapid onset gender dysphoria (ROGD), especially autistic girls.

I don't think this "extreme male/female brain" idea holds water at all.

Let's rephrase the male brain/female brain thing then. Autism is much more commonly diagnosed in males vs females with the reverse being true of cluster-b personality disorder. There certainly are studies that claim a link between autism and these conditions, but it's too much work to try and unpick it all so I'm not just throwing a random study at you. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. It probably wasn't an important point anyway.

 

[Rolfe]

I don't think it's relevant to the point the discussion is at at the moment, no. I don't think there's any particular tendency for autistic males to be AGP. There's a lot of evidence for autistic younsters being predisposed to ROGD, and this is particularly noticeable in autistic girls, possibly because most presentations of ROGD are in girls.

 

[shuttlt]

Yeah I agree it's vastly different perspectives. I do think one perspective is unfair.

The world is unfair and cannot be made fair. Reality is unfair and cannot be made fair. Life is unfair and cannot be made fair. Your wish that the world was fair doesn't trump those things. In the real world the best we can do is to try and hold things together so that most of us muddle by and we try to mitigate the harm to the people who have drawn a bad hand. Life cannot be made fair though and to fixate on fairness is to deny reality.

You are going with the old French Revolutionary idea of taking a bunch of "universal truths" and moral axioms, I guess you are going with égalité, demanding the world should comply with them and expecting utopia. Why do we think that that is possible? Has it ever worked? It has certainly proved to be a path to dystopia a bunch of times. Actual functioning societies are compromises riddled with unfairness that are evolved over time. On past form, yours is a recipe for a non-functioning society that is riddled with unfairness.

 

[Rolfe]

If you can discern a recipe for a functioning society in his disjointed and non-sequitur posts, I congratulate you.