Does the plan include:
A) Bringing all the dead Ukrainians back to life.
B) Russia/Putin actually experiencing any punishment (not passive repercussions, but actual punishment) for what they did?
If not then well... *jerk off gesture*
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Should Ukraine give up?
- Thread starter Hercules56
- Start date
Does the plan include:
A) Bringing all the dead Ukrainians back to life.
B) Russia/Putin actually experiencing any punishment (not passive repercussions, but actual punishment) for what they did?
If not then well... *jerk off gesture*
MarkCorrigan
Героям слава!
Again, you appear to be operating under the illusion that even if Putin wants to use the nukes, which isn't a given, that this will mean that the missiles will start flying.
I'm pretty sure that the people who actually have to launch the things might not be so eager to die for the man who has crippled their economy and exposed their military for the paper tiger that it is.
Again, during the Soviet era, which was even more of a dictatorship than Russia is now, to launch a nuke from one of the nuke armed subs required all three of the top officers on the ship to agree. I can't imagine that Russia's nuclear football is that much more open to abuse than the Soviet era one.
MarkCorrigan
Героям слава!
Oh stop being such a dick about this.
You know that A is impossible, so it's monumentally stupid to insist upon it.
B on the other hand, yes. What do you think that bankrupting a country and totally shutting down its economy is, exactly? Even if the sanctions are lifted when Russia pulls out Russia's economy won't suddenly spring back to normal instantly. Russia will be bankrupt and reliant on outside help for years if not decades after this fiasco and that's assuming that anyone will acquiesce to bankrolling the collapsed Russian economy.
How, exactly, do you think a country without a functional economy runs?
My moral ground is higher than any version of capitulation or appeasement.
I'm fine, thank you.
MarkCorrigan
Героям слава!
Please point to where I suggested any form of capitulation or appeasement. I'll wait.
ETA: If it helps, I said that I would rather that Russia was bombed into the ground than Ukraine give up anything to them. Please, tell me how you can read appeasement and/or capitulation out of that.
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I'm not playing the "Show me champagne, all I see is sparkling wine" semantics game between "appeasement" and "LOL I'm... JUST SAYING.. .that if Ukraine does what Russia wants maybe this end quicker I'm not saying I'm just saying" routine.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
That sinking feeling you get when suddenly Pakistan is on track to have a tighter and more sober control over its nuclear weapons than Russia.
Then you are not on the side I'm ******* talking to Jesus Christ you replied to me not the other way around why is this so ******* difficult to understand.
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theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Let's not count our chickens before they hatch. On the day Russia starts to pull back, or to be driven back, I'll say that Ukraine is starting to win. But until that day...
TurkeysGhost
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2018
- Messages
- 35,043
It's hard to imagine Putin willing to pull out of Ukraine unless there is some face-saving concession he can extract from Ukraine. The worse things go for the invading Russian army and economically (because of sanctions), the less Putin may be willing to accept.
Ukraine agreeing not to join NATO, to the point of enshrining neutrality into its constitution, seems like an easy thing to give away. Especially considering that NATO seems to have no intention of allowing Ukraine to join even if it wanted to. Putin can lie to say he's secured his borders from Russia's enemies and Ukraine can get these ghouls out of their country.
I'm sure there's more than a few Western observers that would happily see the Russian invasion turn into some multi-year or multi-decade occupation plagued by insurgency, but I really doubt spiting Russia is going to make the total destruction of Ukraine go down any easier for the Ukrainians. The best they can realistically hope for is that their effective resistance brings Russia to the point of accepting some token concession and getting out quickly.
Ukraine agreeing not to join NATO, to the point of enshrining neutrality into its constitution, seems like an easy thing to give away. Especially considering that NATO seems to have no intention of allowing Ukraine to join even if it wanted to. Putin can lie to say he's secured his borders from Russia's enemies and Ukraine can get these ghouls out of their country.
I'm sure there's more than a few Western observers that would happily see the Russian invasion turn into some multi-year or multi-decade occupation plagued by insurgency, but I really doubt spiting Russia is going to make the total destruction of Ukraine go down any easier for the Ukrainians. The best they can realistically hope for is that their effective resistance brings Russia to the point of accepting some token concession and getting out quickly.
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MarkCorrigan
Героям слава!
What?
No seriously, what?
I stated that I don't consider Ukraine to be "losing" the war, and have explicitly stated that I do not think that Ukraine should make any concessions to Russia. I also stated that when this is over, Ukraine will be in a much stronger position than it was before the war, and that Russia will be utterly crippled.
You made a pissy post saying that unless the "plan" that I had alluded to included Russia being punished and the dead coming back to life it was worthless.
I addressed this by pointing out that Russia WILL be punished and that the other part of your post was idiotic.
then you accused me of being for appeasement and concessions.
So please, explain why you are having a tantrum at me over my stance and accused me of favouring appeasement?
MarkCorrigan
Героям слава!
There is no way that this isn't the end result of this war. Literally the only question is how long Putin will be able to drag it out for.
The Russian economy will be utterly destroyed by the sanctions. It's already falling apart. Eventually the fact that his country doesn't have an economy anymore and can't afford to keep it's people fed or it's army paid will mean that someone will notice and realise that they are ******. You cannot continue a war when you can't even pay or feed your soldiers, and when the Russian economy collapses that's exactly the situation they will be in.
The "Well the evil can only be evil so long, then they'll have to stop being evil" version of "Good" is one I am very unfamiliar with.
If I'm punching you in the face I can't go "Don't worry sooner my arm is going to get tired."
If I'm punching you in the face I can't go "Don't worry sooner my arm is going to get tired."
MarkCorrigan
Героям слава!
I'm not sure why people seem to think that Russia will be able to carry on this war indefinitely. I genuinely don't believe that actual thinking adults don't realise that having a functioning economy is necessary to even having a standing army let alone prosecuting a war. It isn't a case of "it can only do so for so long" in a vacuum. I'm not claiming that Russia will hit it's high score and then stop, I'm saying it will literally run out money and stop being able to pay it's soldiers or buy them provisions and ammo.
If Russia cannot afford to pay it's solders, cannot afford to buy or manufacture munitions and cannot afford to feed them, exactly how do you think Russia's army will function?
Russia's economy tanks and the military will soon stop functioning.
Didn't you used to be in the Navy? Tell me, if you were operating on your aircraft carrier, launching airstrikes against a foreign power and suddenly you found out that your government couldn't pay you and that you were no longer receiving rations because they couldn't afford them, would you keep going? What about when the planes run out of missiles because the government can't buy any more and can't afford to manufacture them? How exactly do you think the Russian military can prosecute a war with no money?
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You're so far away from the point that Russia couldn't successfully get a military convoy to it.
MarkCorrigan
Героям слава!
How am I far away from a point I raised?
You started arguing with me about this. All I've done is explain my position in more detail. It's like you're having a totally different conversation here.
You even mocked my position in your previous post, which indicates that no, I'm very much not far away from the point.
But please, go ahead and indulge your bizarre posting style and explain what, exactly, the point is?
"But the evil has to stop eventually" is not the same thing as "The evil never happened."
And if you response is going to be anything like "I never said that" then explain to me why all your arguments are dependent on that being true.
Yes eventually the heat death of the universe will happen and Russia will have to pull out of the Ukraine, we know. It's just not the point.
And if you response is going to be anything like "I never said that" then explain to me why all your arguments are dependent on that being true.
Yes eventually the heat death of the universe will happen and Russia will have to pull out of the Ukraine, we know. It's just not the point.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
The only way I can see Putin withdrawing without concessions from Ukraine is if his army is so thoroughly gutted that he can't even manage basic security in the occupied regions, and has to withdraw in the face of local militia resistance just to preserve what little is left.
MarkCorrigan
Героям слава!
But I'm not making that claim and don't understand how you can think that my arguments depend upon it.
Just because I think that Ukraine will be stronger after this debacle is over doesn't mean that I don't think that what is happening is a travesty. They're being subject to ethnic clensing and civilians are being deliberately targeted by a hostile military. That's pretty much right up there on a list of "this is horrific" things that can happen.
My point is that the eventual result of Russia's insanity will be the destruction of the Russian economy and the eventual rebuilding of Ukraine as a much more equal player on the world scene. I cannot imagine Ukraine being denied entry to NATO and the EU after this, for example and the IMF has already started setting aside money for teh rebuilding effort.
Yes, this is a humanitarian disaster, and it will take time and money to rebuild the country once it is over. Yes, Russia have committed atrocities on several levels during the prosecution of this war. They've deliberately bombed civilians and hospitals. They've resorted to cluster-bombing and shelling citiesto try and grind them down. These are acts that cannot be excused. Russia needs to be punished for these actions, even if the rest of the world shies away from direct military action.
My point is not that this will all be made better instantly and we can go back to pretending nothing happened. My point is that the only end goal of this hideous war that is remotely possible is that Ukraine will, eventually, be made stronger by its new-found friends in the West despite it's losses, and that Russia will be utterly crippled by the stupidity of one man.
When the Russian economy collapses, Russia will be all but irreparably damaged. Russia as it exists today will not continue to exist after this is over. Ukraine will. Even if Russia some how managed to occupy more of Ukraine that a small area beyond where it currently is (which it won't, because paper tiger) it will eventually be forced to withdraw. Ukraine, and its supporters in the West should not accept anything less than full Russian withdrawal in exchange for lifting the sanctions and stopping adding to them. The longer this goes on the more damage will be done to Ukraine, but the longer it will take the Russian economy to be able to hobble back into normality.
This is why the economic sanctions need to be ramped up. Crush the Russian economy faster and you shorten the length of the war. The quicker it takes for Russia to not be able to pay and feed the soldiers, the quicker the war will collapse and the quicker we can get to rebuilding the shattered parts of Ukraine.
I don't think it will be an easy process, and I don't think it will be a fast one, but it will happen. Ukraine will stand, and supported by its allies in the West it will recover. It will never forget what was done to it and nor should it. No one should forget what Russia is doing. No one should EVER allow Russia to forget it's monstrous activities over the last few weeks and for however long it continues to murder the Ukrainian people. Forgiveness may come, eventually, much further down the line, but no one should ever forget. The crimes of Russia should be punished in international criminal court, and by the economic sanctions bankrupting the country. Personally I think that the Russian economy should be crushed utterly no matter if they agree to pull out of Ukraine. Russia and Putin should be punished for this even if they suddenly do a 180 and leave Ukraine immediately.
Just because I believe that the horrors of war will pass and Ukraine will be made stronger doesn't mean that I dismiss the horrors being inflicted upon her, and that you accuse me of such means that either I'm not being clear enough in my condemnation of Russia, or you're not reading what I'm saying properly. If it is the former, I fully apologise. Given how quick you were to accuse me of wanting appeasement despite me saying in this very thread that I am fully opposed to Russia getting anything out of this, I suspect it is not, however.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
I don't see how you can be so sure.