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Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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Emily's Cat said:
Not really. This is Suburban Turkey's go-to. They really don't have anything more compelling than the threat of smearing people (particularly females) with a label, as if that sort of shaming and bullying would cow us into backing down and submissively relinquishing our rights and dignity.

I'm rather enamored of Birdy Rose's newest design...

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...-4d9b-9fd9-e051b473ff51_740x.jpg?v=1646935927
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Great tweet seen the other day.

"Every right you take for granted is because some woman wouldn't shut up."

(It was a reply to someone telling Joanne Rowling to shut up.)
 
Meadmaker said:
It still seems like a bit of a dodge to me. Let's avoid the question of who gets access to which sex-segregated spaces by saying that there shouldn't be sex segregated spaces.
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I can't comment on how much men value their sex-segretated spaces, although I think they do. But what we have here is a situation where women are protesting because a group of entitled males is demanding access to the female-only spaces we value. It does not seem like much of a solution to say, "OK, we will completely abolish your female-only spaces then, that's the perfect outcome."
 
Rolfe said:
I can't comment on how much men value their sex-segretated spaces, although I think they do. But what we have here is a situation where women are protesting because a group of entitled males is demanding access to the female-only spaces we value. It does not seem like much of a solution to say, "OK, we will completely abolish your female-only spaces then, that's the perfect outcome."
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It's Solomonic. The real women are the ones who would rather grant transwomen access to the space, than to destroy it forever.
 
Rolfe said:
I can't comment on how much men value their sex-segretated spaces, although I think they do. But what we have here is a situation where women are protesting because a group of entitled males is demanding access to the female-only spaces we value. It does not seem like much of a solution to say, "OK, we will completely abolish your female-only spaces then, that's the perfect outcome."
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That is kind of what happened to male-only spaces.
 
Meadmaker said:
It still seems like a bit of a dodge to me. Let's avoid the question of who gets access to which sex-segregated spaces by saying that there shouldn't be sex segregated spaces.
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I think it's more of a dodge to try to insist the status quo must remain unchanged rather than finding an acceptable solution for all parties.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I think it's more of a dodge to try to insist the status quo must remain unchanged rather than finding an acceptable solution for all parties.
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So... what do you propose we do in the interim?

Your utopian solution isn't in place right now. I'd like to know what your proposal is for right now.

Honestly, it seems as if your approach is "Females should just shut up because we could maybe have a better solution at some unspecified time in the future". That's not an answer, it's not a solution. It's a wish draped in a demand.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
I think it's more of a dodge to try to insist the status quo must remain unchanged rather than finding an acceptable solution for all parties.
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Except, of course, the women who value their single-sex spaces and want to retain them. These women can suck it up, we have no intention of finding an acceptable solution for them.
 
Emily's Cat said:
So... what do you propose we do in the interim?

Your utopian solution isn't in place right now. I'd like to know what your proposal is for right now.

Honestly, it seems as if your approach is "Females should just shut up because we could maybe have a better solution at some unspecified time in the future". That's not an answer, it's not a solution. It's a wish draped in a demand.
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Retrofitting changing rooms isn't some 10 year plan kind of solution. Sure, it costs money, but it's literally the kind of thing that can be done in a month.

There have been examples already given in this thread that, once discrimination against trans people isn't offered as an option, personal privacy solutions can be acted on rapidly.
 
And what makes you think this solution is acceptable to all parties? Other than your repeated dismissal of women who want to retain their female-only spaces.
 
Considering the ongoing humanitarian effort to provide female sanitary facilities in schools in the third world, so that female pupils don't need to lose a week of schooling every month when they're on their period, or in the more extreme cases can't attend school at all, this doesn't sound very progressive to me.

The off-hand dismissal of women and girls who depend on single-sex sanitary facilities and who cannot take any place in society without them is telling, as LondonJohn would say.
 
Rolfe said:
Really? There are no men-only lavatories, prisons, dormitories, changing rooms? How long has this been the case?
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There were a lot of men only spaces that went this way. And honestly lavatories, are they really men only? At pretty much every place I've been to where there was a big queue for the ladies toilets, they just use the gents. Those signs on the door are much more to warn women that there may be a bunch of smelly guys in there with their junk out rather than to protect the guys. Are male prisons men only for the benefit of the men incarcerated there, or the women who aren't? Every male space that there has been any kind of demand from women to be given access to, they have been given access to and men have been told to suck it up because it's current year.

Every time women have asked for access to male spaces the answer has been "OK, we will completely abolish your [male]-only space then, that's the perfect outcome."

For myself, I'm for the existence of male only spaces and female only spaces. Having women around changes the dynamic, just as having men around does.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I'm circling back to my "have you ever actually interacted with a female?" position.

Seriously - are you somehow under the impression that vulvas "ooze"? If we're menstruating, there's some perhaps... but outside of that if a female's vulva or vaginal canal is oozing, they have a medical condition and need to see a doctor.
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Oh for flibbertygasts sake, my point was that there is an implicit bias between statements if u change the gender,
it's ok if it's a female but it's very bad and threatening if it's a male.

Emily's Cat said:
Clearly.

So you went from what actually happens - sperm being produced by the body in testes, which are in scrotum, which are visible on naked males - to something that doesn't happen in some effort at a gotcha?
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did you read what I was replying to? The 'producing sperm in front of god and everybody' comment surely implies external?

Also, I'm not trying to gotcha anything, I'm after true statements and learning more about everything, that's why I'm on this forum to which gotchas shouldn't be a thing.

Emily's Cat said:
FFS, why not just go full steam ahead and "flip" a male with a visible erection to a female with "erect labia" or some other nonsense that demonstrates your ignorance of the female body?
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Your obsession with my ignorance of the female body is weird,
you can check my previous posts to find out how old I am and how many kids I have etc.

EDIT: I just realised that you, yes you Emily's Cat, are actually trying to 'gotcha' me with my potential ignorance of the female body?

You should be ashamed :D
 
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Reading through the interim report of the Cass review of treatment for children and adolescents with gender dysphoria at the moment.

Some points that stand out in relation to the evidence base.

"1.23. Evidence on the appropriate management of children and young people with gender incongruence and dysphoria is inconclusive both nationally and internationally."

This contrasts with the certainty expressed by activist lobby groups and activist clinicians.

"1.24. A lack of a conceptual agreement about the meaning of gender dysphoria hampers research, as well as NHS clinical service provision."

Gender dysphoria is a poorly understood and contested condition, as many of us have been saying.

"1.27. There has been research on the short-term mental health outcomes and physical side effects of puberty blockers for this cohort, but very limited research on the sexual, cognitive or broader developmental outcomes."

This contrasts with the frequent claim that puberty blockers have been found to be safe and reversible.

"1.29. Aspects of the literature are open to interpretation in multiple ways, and there is a risk that some authors interpret their data from a particular ideological and/or theoretical standpoint"

Who would have thought?

It looks as though GIDS Tavistock may end up winding down and treatment being distributed to local centres.
 
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One observation about unisex bathrooms and changing facilities. I worked at a company that moved offices and did this. There were cubicles that each had a little sink in. It was kind of cramped. The water came out of the sink with quite a bit of force and would often splash the toilet seat. Very soon there were labels on the doors of the cubicles saying which were for men and which were for women. Forget trans people, the amount of ill will and resentment that is going to generated amongst women and directed at men by having unisex toilets is going to be a lot. The future being advocated for involves women eternally finding the toilet seat left up and covered in pee stains.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Retrofitting changing rooms isn't some 10 year plan kind of solution. Sure, it costs money, but it's literally the kind of thing that can be done in a month.

There have been examples already given in this thread that, once discrimination against trans people isn't offered as an option, personal privacy solutions can be acted on rapidly.
Click to expand...

This is why the term "fringe reset" ends up getting used so often in this conversation. It was usually applied to a pattern in paranormal or conspiracy theories forums. Person A makes a claim. Persons B, C, and D provide objections to claim, citing examples or analogies, or provides information in support of objections. Person A focuses on analogies or supporting information, rather than defending the claim against the objections, effectively changing the subject.

Person A repeats claim.

That's the "fringe reset".


When last time the subject came up, it was pointed out that the solutions you referenced would result in individuals requiring more time to change clothes and/or shower in such facilities as were proposed. The end result is that fewer people can use the facilities at any given time, which forces providers to limit the programming which made changing clothes and/or showering necessary.

You dismissed the problem then. You will dismiss the problem now. It's an inconvenient truth to the "greater privacy for all" solution. Find me an architect that says he has a way to redesign locker rooms to accommodate the same number of people in the same amount of time that they currently can, without knocking out some walls, and I'll take the claim seriously.
 
shuttlt said:
One observation about unisex bathrooms and changing facilities. I worked at a company that moved offices and did this. There were cubicles that each had a little sink in. It was kind of cramped. The water came out of the sink with quite a bit of force and would often splash the toilet seat. Very soon there were labels on the doors of the cubicles saying which were for men and which were for women. Forget trans people, the amount of ill will and resentment that is going to generated amongst women and directed at men by having unisex toilets is going to be a lot. The future being advocated for involves women eternally finding the toilet seat left up and covered in pee stains.
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In one of the previous continuations of the thread the story of the UK Home Office building was told, in which some of the toilet facilities were converted to unisex, in the way you described. The result was the women working near the unisex bathrooms ended up walking a long way to the nearest women's room.
 
Elaedith said:
Reading through the interim report of the Cass review of treatment for children and adolescents with gender dysphoria at the moment.

Some points that stand out in relation to the evidence base.

"1.23. Evidence on the appropriate management of children and young people with gender incongruence and dysphoria is inconclusive both nationally and internationally."

This contrasts with the certainty expressed by activist lobby groups and activist clinicians.

"1.24. A lack of a conceptual agreement about the meaning of gender dysphoria hampers research, as well as NHS clinical service provision."

Gender dysphoria is a poorly understood and contested condition, as many of us have been saying.

"1.27. There has been research on the short-term mental health outcomes and physical side effects of puberty blockers for this cohort, but very limited research on the sexual, cognitive or broader developmental outcomes."

This contrasts with the frequent claim that puberty blockers have been found to be safe and reversible.

"1.29. Aspects of the literature are open to interpretation in multiple ways, and there is a risk that some authors interpret their data from a particular ideological and/or theoretical standpoint"

Who would have thought?

It looks as though GIDS Tavistock may end up winding down and treatment being distributed to local centres.
Click to expand...
Puberty blockers make no sense to me, I think they're not good.

you have to go through puberty to make an informed choice on what and who you want to be re your body.,
puberty blockers don't help mostly, if at all.
 
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