Electric Vehicles

[ZirconBlue]

Karen is planning a trip to northern Indiana from our home near Knoxville, TN.

This is what Tesla’s trip planner comes up with:

[qimg]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51916713201_d1f110bff6.jpg[/qimg]

Half hour stops every few hours of driving is not that big a deal. To us. It may be to others. But at our age and pace, it takes a while to grab coffee and a snack, go to the bathroom, stretch, walk the dog, whatever. Which turns a lot of 5 minute gas stops into at least 15 minute stops when all is said and done.

Not trying to convince anyone of anything. Do what works for you.

And, again, we owned a PHEV Honda Clarity for over 3 years and over 60,000 miles, and the PHEV concept is a sound one. But I think it’s doomed to be a short-lived transitional step on the way to full EV’s. Having an engine along to charge your battery and/or drive the wheels is certainly convenient, but it undeniably adds a lot of complexity and maintenance compared to a pure EV.

Huh. That Lexington, KY stop is probably in the Meijer parking lot I mentioned previously.

 

[jimbob]

My commute is 64 miles, I don't fancy cycling that even on the sunniest of days.

Finger is hovering over a lease on an eNiro 4+, the diesel will go. There's no need for it as we consciously leave it on the drive when going on long trips even though the Leaf has a relatively short range (c. 160 miles) and a relatively low charge rate (max is 46 KW).

As for the conversation where I am not contributing...

The charging network here 10 years ago was insufficient for the number of EV's on the road. Now there's lots more EV's and the charging network isn't ideal, but it's much better. You will have to modify your driving if/when you buy an EV, but it's cheaper to run* and you get to feel superior (though I acknowledge that cyclists and pedestrians are that much more superior to me).

*unless the tax payer is subsidising the pollution you produce

I know that my commute is longer than the median UK car commute distance and possibly the "average" distance for 2014

 

[Ziggurat]

And I think an affordable EV with about 200-300 miles range and 10-20 minute 10-80% charging would cover long distance needs for anyone who does such trips less than weekly.

Needs? Maybe. Wants? I don't think EV's will satisfy the long distance driving wants for a whole lot of people any time soon.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

For BP, car chargers to overtake pumps in profitability race

"If I think about a tank of fuel versus a fast charge, we are nearing a place where the business fundamentals on the fast charge are better than they are on the fuel," BP's head of customers and products Emma Delaney told Reuters.

 

[Dr. Keith]

So far these claims have been basically handwaving.

Yes, and yet I have provided facts to counter them.

Not several supercharger stations though. And it's only a nominal cost if the grid behind that pole doesn't have to be upgraded. And remember, we are talking about chargers a bit faster than the fastest of chargers now. We're not in residential loads here, we're not in gas station power poles either, we're in medium commercial. The infrastructure for that isn't usually strewn along highways. It's in zoned higher density commercial areas.

Yes. And?

How many chargers has Tesla installed across this country while not even being supported by a profitable business? If the big manufacturers start pushing mainly EV they can easily find the funding for such a system.

Since even the faster than present charges we're talking about are still slower than gas pumps won't there have to be more chargers than there are gas pumps? Although hopefully some land area can be recovered due to fewer gas pumps.

Why would you need land? You don’t want to create new charging stations to mimic the awful gas station system. You put chargers where people are already going to stop. Where there are already parking places. You put them at every Chilis restaurant along major highways. You put them at rest areas. You put them at Starbucks and Walmart. You put them at hotels and motels. You cater to the driver rather than asking the driver to go out of their way to make another stop.

So what's going to address this need? Whatever your answer is, why not use whatever that is to address the "road trip" scenarios rather than a costly expansion of the charger network?

Hybrids. That is the whole conversation. Should we even consider EVs for long distance travel or should we just insist that all long distance travel must be done by hybrid.

I think Tesla drivers are proving that people want to own an EV and travel long distance in their EVs. I see that as getting better over time. Others see it as impossible to support.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Needs? Maybe. Wants? I don't think EV's will satisfy the long distance driving wants for a whole lot of people any time soon.

Yeah for some people an EV will have to offer onboard coal burning so that they can literally “roll coal”.

And I think wants will change over time. As better EVs hit the market people will want them.

 

[Dr. Keith]

For BP, car chargers to overtake pumps in profitability race

Should this be added to the “Go woke, go broke” thread?

 

[Filippo Lippi]

Should this be added to the “Go woke, go broke” thread?

Dunno. I imagine that's a bigger car crash than this one has become

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Why would you need land?

Uh, I said land would be recovered not used. I give up.

 

[Ziggurat]

Should we even consider EVs for long distance travel or should we just insist that all long distance travel must be done by hybrid.

This is... odd framing. I'm not insisting on anything. I'm predicting what I think will happen. And what I'm predicting isn't that all long distance travel must be done by hybrids (which would be a strange claim indeed), only that this will be a lot more common than all-electric cars for long distance travel. I've been explicit from the start that some people will do long distance with EV's.

 

[ZirconBlue]

You put chargers where people are already going to stop. Where there are already parking places. You put them at every Chilis restaurant along major highways. You put them at rest areas. You put them at Starbucks and Walmart. You put them at hotels and motels. You cater to the driver rather than asking the driver to go out of their way to make another stop.

Cracker Barrels would be ideal locations. They're ubiquitous, at least in the Eastern US, and most, if not all, are located at Interstate exits. And it usually takes a good hour or so to get in and out, between the wait, dining time, and time spent wandering the giftshop.

 

[Dr. Keith]

This is... odd framing. I'm not insisting on anything. I'm predicting what I think will happen. And what I'm predicting isn't that all long distance travel must be done by hybrids (which would be a strange claim indeed), only that this will be a lot more common than all-electric cars for long distance travel. I've been explicit from the start that some people will do long distance with EV's.

My bad. I try to refrain from restating someone else’s argument. Thank you for the correction.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Cracker Barrels would be ideal locations. They're ubiquitous, at least in the Eastern US, and most, if not all, are located at Interstate exits. And it usually takes a good hour or so to get in and out, between the wait, dining time, and time spent wandering the giftshop.

That is the approach I would take. Don’t even need super fast charges with that approach. Sell a few more desserts.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Uh, I said land would be recovered not used. I give up.

My bad. I was trying to respond before getting on a conference call.

I don’t think you will recover much land because I don’t think you will want to remove gas capacity, but the growth may slow. And over time the growth MAY go negative, but it can be hard to repurpose a gas station. UST remediation is not cheap, but current tanks should reduce that cost. And they tend to be set up in places that may not be ideal for other types of businesses. But it will be interesting to see how that plays out.

 

[lomiller]

Assuming your conclusion. Among other problems.

What other "problems" and what issue do you have with the concept of economies of scale? In fact you seem to be assuming dis-economies of scale, that seems like something you should justify with evidence, since the opposite is the norm.

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

I'm not assuming that.

 

[lomiller]

I'm not assuming that.

So you agree the that the infrastructure cost per Wh drops when you deliver more power and use more charging stations at a site?

 

[RecoveringYuppy]

Not particularly relevant and I'm not interested in pursuing this.

 

[novaphile]

Yes, and yet I have provided facts to counter them.



Yes. And?

How many chargers has Tesla installed across this country while not even being supported by a profitable business? If the big manufacturers start pushing mainly EV they can easily find the funding for such a system.




Why would you need land? You don’t want to create new charging stations to mimic the awful gas station system. You put chargers where people are already going to stop. Where there are already parking places. You put them at every Chilis restaurant along major highways. You put them at rest areas. You put them at Starbucks and Walmart. You put them at hotels and motels. You cater to the driver rather than asking the driver to go out of their way to make another stop.

Hybrids. That is the whole conversation. Should we even consider EVs for long distance travel or should we just insist that all long distance travel must be done by hybrid.

I think Tesla drivers are proving that people want to own an EV and travel long distance in their EVs. I see that as getting better over time. Others see it as impossible to support.

While I thoroughly support this idea, I have seen problems in this space already.

Imagine a roadside restaurant with a line of parking spaces outside...

So you convert all the spaces to charging spaces...

Are the non EV drivers allowed to park there anymore?

Do the EV drivers have to move their cars as soon as the charge is complete?

Where do the EV drivers park if they don't want to charge?

Should the charging spaces be further away from the store/restaurant/coffee shop?

What do we do about disabled drivers who drive EVs ?

EV forums are slowly collecting stories about 'car park rage' due to these issues.

I'm looking forward to charging stations being ubiquitous, where every car-park is a charging bay, and every street light has a socket on it. (Scan the code on the pole to turn the power on for your charge).

We're a long way from there at the moment.

I charge mine at home, and while driving on longer trips.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Are the non EV drivers allowed to park there anymore?

Do the EV drivers have to move their cars as soon as the charge is complete?

Where do the EV drivers park if they don't want to charge?

We're a long way from there at the moment.

From my very limited experience with Tesla Superchargers, let me try…

1) Almost always, no. The signs read “Tesla Vehicle Charging Only”.

We did find one with a single charging station on the end omitting the “Only”, and in that case there was an ICE vehicle in that space, in spite of lots of other available spots. Folks who intentionally block charging slots are affectionately labeled “ICE-holes”. Unless there are state laws about it, I imagine any enforcement has to be done by the property owner, though they may have a right to tow offenders. Perhaps they even have to agree to make a good faith effort to do so - I don’t know.

2) Courtesy would dictate, yes, move when charging is complete. Tesla plans your trip to minimize time needed, and there are penalties after a certain amount of time if they sense you haven’t moved for a certain time after charging was complete.

3] Anywhere they want, i.e. with the unwashed masses (joke). Again, common courtesy.

4) Probably not as far as you think. More Supercharger stations are going up at a very rapid pace and will hopefully continue to keep pace with Tesla sales.

Stipulated this is just about the Tesla world. I have no idea of additional hurdles non-Tesla owners face if any. Further stipulated this is for one given corner of the SE US. But we drove through a lot of very rural portions of TN, GA and FL - other even more remote rural areas may fare very differently at the present time, but gaps a getting filled at the “very rapid pace” mentioned above.