Trans women are not women (Part 8)

Status
Not open for further replies.
So what are the benefits? Why are people so invested in doing this? So far we've got "but these children are suffering and we have to do something." No, we don't, not if what we do is going to do more harm than good. And especially if we can't actually name one benefit.

And especially when it's still an open question whether the discomfort they're feeling is typical of childhood and puberty, or whether it's legitimately dysphoric and best treated by adopting a trans-identity and forcing their biology to conform to that identity.
 
In previous threads I have already pointed out that the study you base this conclusion on do not support this argument.
1 - The study is done on children who do get intensive counselling.
2 - A majority of children do "grow out it", but not the most persistent ones.
3 - The children who were "chemically castrated" were selected from the most persistent ones.


I disagree with your interpretation of this, but the fact is we are now dealing with a situation where counselling is essentially non-existent. It's transphobic to question a child's gender identity, and affirmation is the only permitted "treatment".

And you needn't put "chemically castrated" in scare quotes, because that's what it is. Castration. No fertility, no orgasms, no sexual arousal.
 
The benefit for the very small percentage of children for whom it is possible to determine before puberty (through intensive counselling) that they are very unlikely to ever identify with their biological sex, of preventing them from going through puberty is... not having to go through puberty that changes their body away from what is inline with their identity. Puberty is difficult for most kids, but especially hard for transkids.

It's not at all clear to me that "intensive counseling" is capable of accurately identifying gender or sex dysphoria in prepubescent children. Nor is it at all clear to me that medical transition is the best treatment for prepubescent children believed to be suffering from such dysphoria. You're presenting a tautology in place of a scientifically-evidenced argument in favor of these things.
 
Except for the ones that off themselves.


There is absolutely no evidence at all that refusing to chemically castrate a child has ever led to that child's suicide.

Suicide is thankfully extremely rare in children, and this bogey-man of the hordes of children killing themselves because they weren't castrated when they wanted to be is a figment of the imagination of the trans lobby.

It's pernicious when parents are led to believe that they have to go along with this or their child will commit suicide. It's wicked when the children themselves form the idea that if they decide not to go through with the castration then they will somehow be driven to suicide.

It's also deeply problematic when children pick up on the idea that all they have to do is threaten suicide and they'll be given anything they want, no matter how much harm it will do them in the long term.
 
It very much depends on the individual and at what age they seek treatment. They need counselling that doesn't dismiss them out of hand. If their gender identity seems stable and clear they should be allowed to socially transition, otherwise they should be allowed to explore it a for a bit. They should not be made to endure what they clearly do not want. If it is not yet clear what they want, they should wait and experience their development until they do.

Why would we expect children to have a stable and clear gender identity? Especially in a culture that is increasingly gender fluid and increasingly dismissive of gender identity stereotypes?

Most people's identities don't really clarify and stabilize until their late teens or early twenties. And even then, a lot of people still struggle with their identity a decade or more later. The phenomenon of the "mid-life crisis" is well known. Stereotypically it results in laughably bad life choices as the person in crisis tries to re-imagine or redefine their identity. In their thirties and forties.

But somehow the fact that an eight year-old hasn't figured out their gender identity yet is evidence that we should subvert all their biological processes of maturation? Shouldn't the default solution, when faced with an immature child who doesn't yet have their identity figured out be to let them mature?
 
And what makes you think medical treatment before puberty solves that problem?


There are a tiny number of cases of suicide that the trans lobby trot out to support this claim. Not one of them is an example of a child killing themself because they demanded to be castrated but this was refused. The ones I've seen have been complex mental health issues, arguably pushed over the edge by homophobic or transphobic bullying. Nothing to do with whether or not "medical transition" happened.
 
It very much depends on the individual and at what age they seek treatment.

Prepubescent children do not seek treatment. Parents do.

And I'm not convinced there isn't some Munchausen by proxy **** going on with some of these parents.
 
Oh yes. Also homophobia. There are plenty of cases where parents have confessed to relief that they can have a "normal" daughter rather than a gay son. And quite a lot of them seem to be the classic "right-wing Christian" demographic, funnily enough.

You can coach a young child to believe, and to want, some quite strange things. And a lot of these children seem coached. Mothers who want a "special" child now have a way of achieving that. Maybe even a prime-time TV show.
 
Last edited:
It's not at all clear to me that "intensive counseling" is capable of accurately identifying gender or sex dysphoria in prepubescent children.
It is not possible to do this "accurately". At such a young age it can only be done in a very small percentage of cases. Many will not receive the treatment they might have benefitted from.

Nor is it at all clear to me that medical transition is the best treatment for prepubescent children believed to be suffering from such dysphoria.
In many cases it is not the best treatment, but sometimes it is.

Why would we expect children to have a stable and clear gender identity?
We shouldn't expect that; but some kids do.

Especially in a culture that is increasingly gender fluid and increasingly dismissive of gender identity stereotypes?
It would be interesting to see whether in a less gendered society, it will become harder to identify transkids early. I guess that is certainly possible. Such a society would however be easier for them (and everyone else) to live in, so overall a good thing. Unfortunatly, most of the opposition to transgender issues comes from more rigidly gendered places, and from people who insist on more rigid gender norms.
 
It is not possible to do this "accurately". At such a young age it can only be done in a very small percentage of cases. Many will not receive the treatment they might have benefitted from.

Again, what's the benefit of pre-pubescent medical transition? I'm still not seeing any significant advantages that outweigh the considerable costs.
 
Prepubescent children do not seek treatment. Parents do.
The question was about "minors" which I interpret to mean under 18 year olds. What treatment they should get very much depends on their age.

And I'm not convinced there isn't some Munchausen by proxy **** going on with some of these parents.
It is important while counselling that a child is allowed to speak for themselves without parents present. Parents shouldn't push them in one direction or another.
 
It is not possible to do this "accurately". At such a young age it can only be done in a very small percentage of cases. Many will not receive the treatment they might have benefitted from.


I don't know where to start on that one. First, you continually side-step the huge questions on whether there can be any "benefit" from pre-puberty castration, never mind benefit that could possibly outweigh the huge harms which you repeatedly ignore.

Second, as you now acknowledge that it's not possible to predict which children will still be wanting to pretend they are the opposite sex when they are adult, what is the point of any of it?

Third, we are now in a climate of "affirmation" where no attempt is made to explore the child's mental state - that would be transphobic - and all the children who are brought by their parents to these clinics are "believed". Rather than this elusive child who might have "benifited" from pre-puberty castration, loss of sexual capasity, fertility, IQ points, yadda yadda, but was denied, we have children who in all probability would have given up the whole idea if left to go through puberty being subjected to these harms.

In many cases it is not the best treatment, but sometimes it is.


While disputing that this could ever be the best treatment, given the enormous harms and the intangible, over-hyped "benefits", surely you understand that when it's not possible to accurately stream these children into the ones you believe would benefit and the majority who won't, how can it be ethical to go ahead? Even with some gatekeeping you're going to be damaging a lot of children unnecessarily. With the current affirmation model, you're going to damage them all, the many whom even you acknowledge won't benefit, as well as the few you persist in believing are better off castrated and sexless and sterile with fragile bones and a lowered IQ.

We shouldn't expect that; but some kids do.


As opposed to playing up to the therapist, doing what they think mother wants, doing what they think will get them attention, get them lionised in the stunning and brave category, or get them out of this scary puberty thing they don't really fancy? How do you tell?

It would be interesting to see whether in a less gendered society, it will become harder to identify transkids early. I guess that is certainly possible. Such a society would however be easier for them (and everyone else) to live in, so overall a good thing. Unfortunatly, most of the opposition to transgender issues comes from more rigidly gendered places, and from people who insist on more rigid gender norms.


Transkids. There should be no such thing. It's like a vegan cat. We all know who is making the decisions.

Children should be free to play, dress and express themselves however they want without amyone ever suggesting to them that their preferences might mean they need to be castrated and become medical patients for life. If they choose that for themselves when their brains are mature post-puberty, then that is their choice.
 
Last edited:
Again, what's the benefit of pre-pubescent medical transition? I'm still not seeing any significant advantages that outweigh the considerable costs.

The American Academy of Pediatrics has this to say about the matter:

Gonadotrophin-releasing hormones have been used to delay puberty since the 1980s for central precocious puberty.56 These reversible treatments can also be used in adolescents who experience gender dysphoria to prevent development of secondary sex characteristics and provide time up until 16 years of age for the individual and the family to explore gender identity, access psychosocial supports, develop coping skills, and further define appropriate treatment goals. If pubertal suppression treatment is suspended, then endogenous puberty will resume.20,57,58

Often, pubertal suppression creates an opportunity to reduce distress that may occur with the development of secondary sexual characteristics and allow for gender-affirming care, including mental health support for the adolescent and the family. It reduces the need for later surgery because physical changes that are otherwise irreversible (protrusion of the Adam’s apple, male pattern baldness, voice change, breast growth, etc) are prevented. The available data reveal that pubertal suppression in children who identify as TGD generally leads to improved psychological functioning in adolescence and young adulthood.

https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/142/4/e20182162/37381/Ensuring-Comprehensive-Care-and-Support-for
 
It is important while counselling that a child is allowed to speak for themselves without parents present. Parents shouldn't push them in one direction or another.


It must be nice to live in this ideal world you have in your head. Does it actually exist anywhere?
 
The American Academy of Pediatrics has this to say about the matter:

https://publications.aap.org/pediat...1/Ensuring-Comprehensive-Care-and-Support-for


These people have been completely captured by the trans lobby. They are what we are taking issue with. We are now beginning to see the fallacies and the euphemisms challenged (in Sweden, of all places), but that is a load of lying claptrap.

I'm not sure if I posted this before. Summary of the new Swedish guidelines.

NBHW also emphasized that identity formation in youth is an evolving process, and that the experience of natural puberty is a vital step in the development of the overall identity, as well as gender identity.

NBHW has concluded that, at present, the risks of hormonal interventions for gender dysphoric youth outweigh the potential benefits.


The reassertion of rationality is beginning.
 
Last edited:
These people have been completely captured by the trans lobby. They are what we are taking issue with. We are now beginning to see the fallacies and the euphemisms challenged (in Sweden, of all places), but that is a load of lying claptrap.

I'm not sure if I posted this before. Summary of the new Swedish guidelines.




The reassertion of rationality is beginning.

Ah yes, the insane bizarro world conspiracy where oppressed minorities are actually wielding incredible influence.
 

This paper has been debunked. None of the citations support the claims made.

"Remarkably, not only did the AAP statement fail to include any of the actual outcomes literature on such cases, but it also misrepresented the contents of its citations, which repeatedly said the very opposite of what AAP attributed to them".

There was a time when I would have thought that 'sceptics' would be more interested in how this could happen (given it's exactly what sceptics are supposed to be about), than in deciding what position to support based on ideological correctness.
 
The American Academy of Pediatrics has this to say about the matter:

I decided to examine this claim in some more detail:
Refferty et al said:
These reversible treatments can also be used in adolescents who experience gender dysphoria to prevent development of secondary sex characteristics and provide time up until 16 years of age for the individual and the family to explore gender identity, access psychosocial supports, develop coping skills, and further define appropriate treatment goals. If pubertal suppression treatment is suspended, then endogenous puberty will resume.

They cite three references in support of this claim.

Reference 20: Mostly a descriptive "study" of who shows up to an adolescent transgender treatment clinic, ie, demographic descriptions. Most patients could not even qualify for puberty blockers since they were too old. The "study" repeats the claim that treatment is fully reversible, but provides no evidence or even a reference, and makes no measurements of medical outcomes of their use.

Reference 57: A sort-of review article, provides no data of its own. Mostly concerned with behavioral outcomes. Mentions measurements of bone density during treatment, but provides no evidence regarding reversibility of the procedure or even any mention of any attempt to establish that. Important quote: "Of note is that to date, there has been only one report of a single youth who started puberty suppression and did not continue on to use cross-sex hormones for gender transition." With a sample size of one, it would not even be possible to establish that it was reversible or that puberty resumed normally, no matter what measurements were done (and no such measurements are referenced either).

Reference 58: de Vries 2011
Study does not examine any medical outcomes of puberty blockers, only emotional and behavioral outcomes. And they observe, "No adolescent withdrew from puberty suppression, and all started cross-sex hormone treatment, the first step of actual gender reassignment." That suggests that, contrary to the implication of the AAP's statement, this isn't giving them time to make a decision, this is pushing them down a specific path with a pre-determined outcome. Furthermore, given that all patients went on cross-sex hormone treatment, they would not have been able to establish that puberty resumes after the end of puberty blockers even if they had tried to measure medical outcomes. Which, again, they didn't.

Even your professional citations are full of lies. There is no evidence in any of their references that the effects of this treatment are reversible, that puberty simply resumes when puberty blockers are taken until the age of 16. The citations the authors use do not actually support their claims.

I was never exactly optimistic about the state of transgender research, but it's even worse than I expected.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom