Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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The existence of AGP should not be controversial.

It shouldn't be... but a lot of self-declared transgender people and their advocates determinedly insist that it does NOT... despite the fact that it remains a clinical diagnosis in the sexual paraphilia section of DSM5.

The transgender cohort that argue that dysphoria are not required to be "transgender" largely seem to be AGP.

To the point you brought up, I think right now the majority of people self-declaring to be transgender are in the ROGD category. I think most of them aren't persistently dysphoric, and any dysphoria they experience is a symptom of a different underlying problem - trauma, autism, even normal discomfort with one's developing sexed body, as well as social contagion.

Of those that remain, I think the older people who transitioned long ago tend to be HSTS or otherwise not AGP. Those who are vocally pushing for fully intact males to have unfettered access to all female spaces while simultaneously issuing sex-based threats and using misogynistic language... those are the ones I tend to think are highly likely to be AGP.
 
Nobody here is advocating total prohibition. Some are advocating prohibition of biology-altering, life-altering treatments for minors, without a sound medical basis.

You're being invited to present and defend that sound medical basis, as you understand it, but so far you've been dodging that invitation.

The Texas law is a total prohibition
 
You know, if the FDA or HHS were the ones setting guidelines and limitations on care for dysphoric youth, I would have less disagreement than I do. I may still disagree, but I would have at least some marginal acceptance that someone with knowledge was involved.

But that's not what's happening. These are laws being passed by politicians with no actual knowledge or expertise of any relevant sort.

The fact that I happen to agree that pharmaceutical or surgical procedures should *not* be used as a treatment for dysphoria in youth is actually quite irrelevant to my objection to the creation of these laws in the first place.

I'd have more disagreement with the Texan laws if there didn't seem to be a serious and intentional lack of knowledge or expertise being put forward by the medical community to guide lawmakers.
 
The Texas law is a total prohibition

No, it isn't. It's a prohibition on performing these procedures on children who cannot legally consent to permanent sterility. There is no prohibition on performing them on adults who can consent.
 
The Texas law is a total prohibition

A "total prohibition" of a part of the overall body of practice. Which you are using as an excuse to avoid presenting a good-faith assessment of best practices here in this thread.

Do you favor a partial prohibtion? If so, what parts would you prohibit, and why? What parts would you protect, and why?

Do you favor no prohibition at all? If so, why?
 
I'd have more disagreement with the Texan laws if there didn't seem to be a serious and intentional lack of knowledge or expertise being put forward by the medical community to guide lawmakers.

Is there any indication that Texas lawmakers sought out such guidance? Seems like the onus would be on them to be informed before criminalizing medical procedures.
 
Nobody here is advocating total prohibition. Some are advocating prohibition of biology-altering, life-altering treatments for minors, without a sound medical basis.

You're being invited to present and defend that sound medical basis, as you understand it, but so far you've been dodging that invitation.

To be fair, at least one seems to be saying that there is never a sound medical basis for those procedures for minors.

And several of the rest of us are at least willing to consider that position as well.

My own personal position would fit in well with Sweden's most recent recommendations, which allows it, but only under very limited circumstances and after proper evaluation.

ETA: But my own personal position is a bit flexible, recognizing that I don't claim expertise in the area. I'm open to new information.
 
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Seems to me that people in a situation you describe would have a slam-dunk medical malpractice case.

Except how do you prove that in court? It's not enough to say that they did the wrong thing. You have to prove that they were negligent, and provided care well below the standard of the field. And you really need expert testimony to do that. But how do you do that if the general standard of the field is itself inadequate and doesn't protect against such errors? How do you get an expert to testify against the entire field, without them being basically kicked out of the field? What established practitioners within the field would be willing to sink their own careers for someone else's lawsuit? The deck is stacked against plaintiffs by the nature of how courts admit "expert testimony".

I'm not really seeing how total prohibition is the appropriate response to claims that some practitioners are not engaging in best practices.

I'm not trying to convince you of that. I would settle for you understanding why people are taking that step beyond just thinking they're transphobes.

It's perfectly fair for both the medical community and the general public to question how much psychological treatment and assessment should be required before beginning a medical transition, especially for non-reversible treatments.

Yes, it is fair. And yet, it's not permitted.

Those advocating total prohibition are revealing that they are more interested in the extreme response rather than any good-faith assessment of best practices.

The field itself doesn't appear to be open to good faith assessments of its practices. You shouldn't be surprised that people outside the field then treat it accordingly.
 
I think I must have known that brain development was linked to puberty, because I remember the week I got my first period thinking, when do I start to think differently? Do I stop being me? Of course it's a gradual process and you're not really conscious of it happening. (Mainly I stopped going out to play ball games with the younger children at the intervals, and joined the orchestra.)

Now I really don't know where the references are now, but I read about this a couple of years ago. Studies have shown that puberty blocking in children lowers the IQ by something like 2 to 4 points. I don't think that's in dispute at all. It's just that the frantic parents who have been told their child will commit suicide without them think it's a small price to pay.

There are also the animal studies, with the adolescent sheep. The puberty-blocked group were found to have forgotten tasks they learned earlier, while the control group remembered them. They were also worse at learning new tasks than the control group. These things should not be given to healthy children under any circumstances. Not even if they say they'll scream and scream until they're sick.

There is one condition where puberty blockers may be of use, and that is precocious puberty, when a child starts to go through puberty at an insanely young age. I think that use pre-dates the use in gender nonconforming children, and is the source of the claim that it's just a pause button and everything will return to normal once the drugs are stopped. However I gather it's not as simple as all that, and I don't really know what the adrenals are doing in these children. I understand it's a balancing act, trying to mitigate the harm of very early puberty with drugs themselves known to have harmful side-effects.

For precocious puberty, the blockers are used to prevent the development of secondary characteristics too young. It's being applied during a period of development where bone density isn't supposed to accrete, so the fact that it prevents it is not a problem. Additionally, it prevents the hormonal aspect of puberty from occurring until the other systems, like the adrenal, are also triggering, so that they occur in the same time frame.

One of the most obvious functions of the adrenal is bone growth. There's fairly stead growth prior to puberty, with growth of almost all bones. During puberty, the adrenal shifts and prompts the growth of long bones, resulting in a fairly quick increase in height. It also prompts the closure of growth plates. In children with precocious puberty, that isn't happening when their pituitary-driven hormonal puberty starts.

One of the things that sex hormones do during puberty is to develop cognitive and emotional changes associated with children forming non-familial bonds, romantic bonds, and becoming independent of their parents. Sexual desire isn't limited to just reproductive organs, there's a significant element of cognition involved as well. And in humans particularly, there's an emotional aspect. Those sex hormones maturing the brain is a large part of why we, as humans, can find ourselves physically aroused by someone's personality as opposed to just their body.
 
Rolfe likes to throw acronyms around and insists they represent different phenomena, but there are no diagnostic criteria in use to distinguish between them. On the other hand, she does not seem to distinguish between (autogynephilic) transsexuality and fetishistic transvestism, for which there are diagnostic criteria to distinguish them.

Yeah... Autogynephilia *is* a diagnosis under fetishistic transvestisism. There's no need to distinguish between them, they are the same thing.

The extent to which a person is willing to alter their bodies in order to feed their paraphilia is the only difference in whether someone gets considered transsexual.
 
Transgender individuals are screened for mental health, and those with mental health problems find it harder to access transgender care. Transsexuality is the "mental health disorder" that has "not having mental health disorders" as one of its diagnostic criteria.
False. The majority of people being treated today are NOT required to be screened for mental health issues, and many can access puberty blockers and hormones without ever having been evaluated at all.

My niece is now taking testosterone for "gender dysphoria" that they have NEVER expressed before age 16. They had ONE visit with a PRIMARY CARE DOCTOR in which they said "I'm transgender" and the doctor wrote a prescription.

What you believe is the standard of care is NOT what is actually being delivered right now.

Because they are suffering.
How about we take the time to figure out the source of their suffering, and actually treat that, rather than allowing children to dictate their medical diagnosis and fast-tracking them to damaging treatments? Is that really so much to ask for?

Getting them to "accept themselves" can only ever have a limited effect. It stops working when you are expecting people to deny their sense of identity.
The mental health benefits of encouraging a child to deny reality on a daily basis are not well researched.
 
I don't hear that, although I think I know the comments that you are referring to. What I hear is that the very demanding people, unwilling to compromise, who insist on occupying women's spaces and roles, are dominated by autogynephiles.

That's not the same thing.

Are the comments correct? Are the autogynephiles really driving that bus? I wouldn't say it has been proven, but the evidence for it is significantly greater than zero.
I disagree.

The reason I say that is that none of the people in question have been diagnosed as AGP. The armchair diagnoses are based on two things: sexual attraction to females and aggression.

The first is, at best, questionable given the variety of sexual attractions in the non-trans community. It only works if you link gender identity and sexual attraction in a stronger manner than you link sex and sexual attraction.

The second is just crap. There are aggressive women. Lots of them. Hell, the whole Karen meme illustrates that. I once had an employee who would get pissed off and call me up and cuss me out. She was female. (Actually, she was my my favorite employee. She's retired now. And she would call back a few minutes later and apologize.)

While, on average, men may be more aggressive than women, pretending that it is even close to a uniquely male trait is denying reality. It is no longer notable when a woman speaks up for herself or insistently pushes her opinions. At least not in the professional and social world I live in.

Back to my point. None of the people in the news stories have been tested for AGP. The evidence that these people have AGP is speculation based on behavioral stereotypes.

And I believe one poster in particular has posited that most trans-women are AGP males.

Because? Once again, I've read the same comments, and some of them have not been expressed very articulately, but I think I would take something different from the arguments. Arguments about motivation....why, because, in order,...are rarely straightforward. Human motivation is often confused and complicated, and individuals are not even always aware of their own motivation. Therefore, it's hard to say that trans athletes compete as women in order to satisfy AGP. Their actual motivations may be much more complicated than that. However, if someone was both AGP and athletic, competing as a woman would definitely be something that really feeds that fantasy.
AGP is a paraphilia for seeing oneself as a woman, particularly in a sexual situation.

It is not a paraphilia for dominating women. (Such a thing exists, but it's different from AGP.)


Thise fantasies are not evidence of AGP. They're the definition of AGP.

A non-AGP dysphoric male envisions a certain kind of sex or a certain kind of partner. An AGP male envisions himself as a woman, and that is the fantasy. If the fantasy is particularly strong, it creates dysphoria.

Blanchard, who invented the term, describes the difference in detail here:

https://quillette.com/2019/11/06/what-is-autogynephilia-an-interview-with-dr-ray-blanchard/

(ETA: If you don't want to read the whole interview, find the term "Moser" in the text. That section describes the difference between AGP and other things that could be mistaken for AGP.)

The existence of AGP should not be controversial. It clearly exists, and I was the one (I don't think I was the only one) who brought up the argument. Where there could be some controversy is to what extent AGP contributes to a desire to live as a woman and/or medically transition.

The difference between what you are describing for non-AGP males is that the focus of the fantasy is the sex, or the partner. It is possible that whatever they want to do requires a female body, so that might be incorporated into the fantasy. For AGP, the fantasy IS the body, or the identity. Being the woman is the key element.
My overarching point here, is that I think Blanchard has things backward.
I think AGP is a logical symptom of dysphoria/trans-ness rathere than the cause.

And I think it's perfectly logical that a dysphoric person envisioning themselves in a matching body is going to feel aroused. Because the fantasy of having said body would include having a body that would be capable of experiencing sexuality in the way they believe they are meant to experience sexuality.

I hate to take examples from fiction, but I'm reminded of a scene in the first book of the Thomas Covenant series. (High fantasy series I read in junior high.) The main character is a leper who has lost his sexual function due to his leprosy. In the story he is transferred to a magical realm and is suddenly healed. Having his vitality suddenly restored, he rapes the girl who is with him. (Which is out of character for him otherwise.)

I know that's an ugly scene from fiction and you are wondering: "WTH does this have to do with the topic?" My point is that I think what Doinaldson illustrates in that scene is the psychological response to gaining "correct" psychological function. Not that it would trigger assault or anything so dramatic. Just that gaining that function in and of itself is arousing.

The arousal you describe can also be attributed to envisioning themselves in a body where, like Covenant, they have gained the sexual function that was previously absent.
But what do governing bodies do? How do they govern? They write laws. This isn't criminal or civil legislation, but it's rules for who may participate in the private activity overseen by the government body. So, saying "allow judgement by the governing body", is just saying who writes the rule.

Unless you are saying that the rule ought to be, "In cases of biological males who wish to compete as females, they may petition the Eligibility Committee who will make the determination." Well, if you don't provide guidance, in the form of criteria, to the Eligibility Committee, I would foresee constant controversy over their judgement. I don't see it as workable.
Yes. There will always be controversy. I don't see controversy as necessarily bad.

In the legal system, we have people called judges. They hand down the sentences. The law doesn't say: This crime gets one year and that one two. Judges hand down sentences, within guidelines, taking into account the context and information from the trial. Or they give probation or some similar punishment. In short, they judge.

I see no reason why a sports league cannot be allowed to judge as well. If they can make a list of criteria to consider, that's great. But I don't think you can really make a model where you plug in all the variables and you get an answer. Such a formula is why my former neighbor, who worked at the restaurant owned by her grandparents, who also bought her a house and provided a company car got so much in food stamps she couldn't spend it all and offered to buy our groceries too. There was no judgment portion of the law that allowed for accounting for free housing and transportation by family members who didn't live in the same house.

Judgment, in my opinion works better. But I agree, it's hard to put into law.
 
Cases where one could argue treatment was sometimes given with too little screening -- such as with Tavistock -- are indeed better examples of the problems of privatisation of healthcare than they are examples of problems with transgender care by itself.

Tavistock isn't privatized.

What's your excuse for the reversal in treatment methods from Finland and Sweden?
 
I'd have more disagreement with the Texan laws if there didn't seem to be a serious and intentional lack of knowledge or expertise being put forward by the medical community to guide lawmakers.

Also true.

It goes back to my prior post yesterday regarding the precedent of allowing politicians to dictate medical guidelines. Even if I agree with their declaration on this specific item, I don't think it should be allowable for politicians to write laws like this.
 
... and that makes a difference... how?
Psychologists are people who studied psychology. Hypnotherapists are people who set up a pseudo-scientific practice, not necessarily with any qualifications. Some psychologists may also be hypnotherapists, but that does not make them the same thing.

We have a dog that isn't barking when it should be.
Perhaps it barked when you were sleeping.

I have never once heard anyone describe someone seeking transgender treatment but being denied that treatment because they didn't qualify.
If you have never heard that, you may not have been listening. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and all that.

People may live quietly for a while after rejection, clinics may not be able to reach them anymore for follow-up studies. But talk to some people at a transgender community event, and you'll find quite a few who have tried -- and failed -- to get treatment.
 
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