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The supernatural

For the article Supernatural

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I'm sorry, but I can't agree with this. He claimed to have done research in a lab to prove the supernatural. It quickly emerged that he had not done any research, nor did he even have a lab. This was quickly followed by a denial that the supernatural even existed. That's not a result of indoctrination: that's clickbait dishonesty.
The later discussions, though, showed more of what you say here. I do agree that he has been so brainwashed that he is unable to see that the kinds of arguments that seem so strongly persuasive to him, simply don't work outside of that doctrinal bubble. Religious belief, of the orthodox, Abrahamic kind, is riddled with contradictions, so the multiple conflicting claims thrown out by heydarian are to be expected. (As an aside, we've seen the same thing with Scorpion.) It is entirely possible that this cognitive dissonance is unrecognised by a zealot like heydarian, who may actually believe that there are no contradictions, inconsistencies or absurdities in his faith, and that it is also both honest and desirable to cherry-pick quotes from the likes of Hawking, so as to make them appear to support his beliefs when in fact they do not. Moreover, the idea that you only have to look around to see the evidence of the existence of a god is commonplace among believers: they just don't seem to understand that, out here in the real world, confirmation bias and other cognitive biases do not count as evidence, no matter how strongly they think they do.

And right on cue:

Hello
God is very clear. Everything in the universe is a sign and work of God. Do not you see? Is it not clear to you? Shapes from your point of view. Otherwise, God is completely clear. It is the most enjoyable for me.
Thanks

:rolleyes:
 
Hello dear philosopher
I agree with exactly what you are saying in this message. We respect all religions - schools - ideas and human thoughts. We check. We accept some of their ideas. And we do not accept some. And we are free to comment on it. Is not this the approach of
freedom? On the other hand, we are ready to accept rational criticisms of our own religion by others.
Do you not see that in this group all my friends are attacking my beliefs and religion? And I answer everyone. Of course, they do not accept any of my answers. no problem. Because they are not the same as their own beliefs. And this is a natural thing. Infidels never accept the beliefs of Muslims or any other religion.
They chant that we are fanatical and superstitious Muslims. If it is exactly the opposite. The disbelievers are fanatics and superstitious. I told you some of the superstitions of my religion. And I said that I do not believe in these superstitions at all. And it's wrong. You see, I'm not prejudiced.

Remember what I was saying about contradictions?
Yup.
And I'm not superstitious. But unfortunately, your mind is not clear at all. Why do you think this about me? I do not care what you think of me. I'm sorry for you.
They do not even argue logically. This bubble that you think I am in is your mistake. I'm not in the bubble. You are imprisoned in your own bubble. In any case, I am ready to accept your logical criticisms. And I am responsible. And I do not expect you to accept my words. Let's just talk in a friendly and logical way. I do not expect much from you. Please be reasonable. Thank you

What bubble do you claim I am in, heydarian?

This is against my better judgement: I do not believe heydarian is interested in honest debate, and I do not expect to get an honest answer. If this happens, I will go back to sniping from a distance again. If he tries to verbally snog me again, I will puke, and then quit this thread permanently.
 
Hello dear philosopher
What is your school of philosophy? What are the basic principles of logic in your philosophy? I do not expect you to provide me with a complete site - book or article for these two questions. Just answer these two questions for me briefly in a few lines. I am waiting.
I enjoy discussing with you. Because you think realistically.
Thank you very much

All of this message is completely correct. And I agree. In particular: I believe that all the discoveries of modern science in the twentieth century are predictions of the Qur'an in the seventh century. My dear friend, the Quran is not a laboratory. It is a religious book. He talked about all human needs. And it has content. Approximately 2,500 verses out of 6,200 are about science.
Thanks


I am not interested in any more claims from you or questions from you. None of that, until you admit that you beliuefs are not supported by published science ...

... science is the method that mankind now uses to decide whether claims about anything in this universe are likely to be true vs unlikely to be true.

The explanations that we have from science are completely incompatible with your religious beliefs.

Science has produced the evidence to back that up a million time over-&-over-again. Your religious beliefs and claims have zero evidence.

I'm not interested in any other discussion except that crucial test of how all of science shows that your ancient religious beliefs are no more than uneducated ancient superstitions from an age of ignorance. That is the only honest discussion left here.
 
Hello
Thank you. Your eyes are always open to everyone. You have beautiful thoughts and words. Sometimes it gets bitter. We eat coffee with sweets. And we make up for the bitterness of the coffee.
Thank you


Thank you, heydarian. Can’t say, though, that my words there were particularly beautiful, and nor had they any reason to be. And no, there’s no bitterness; the asperity is a result of impatience, more than anything else, as well as a general dislike for religious preaching.
(Preaching, as opposed to reasoned reasonable discussion ----- I’m fine with the latter, even if the subject happens to be religion and God and so on, I wouldn’t be here otherwise in this subforum.)

I’m going to say squarely to you what I’ve said about you. I don’t think you’re engaging with this discussion at all honestly. I’ve given you the benefit of the doubt for the longest time, but it is now very clear now that you’re here simply to preach your superstitions, and that the “discussion” you’d initiated here was no more than a fig leaf behind which you could hide your actual intention of preaching.

You simply ignore posts that clearly show you and your precious Quran in the wrong. You misinterpret whatever it is at all possible to misinterpret, in others’ posts. And then you start blathering on afterwards, with your theistic cant.

Others have been complaining that you ignore their substantial posts. With reason, because some of them have taken pains to compose lengthy substantive posts, people like IanS for example. For some reason you’ve been kind enough to respond to all of my posts, but even here, whenever you come across a post you have no answer to, you simply jump across it as if it were not there at all. That bespeaks a lack of intellectual integrity.

Here’s a very elementary argument of mine from upthread that you’ve ignored, for instance, not once but twice (even as you’ve been kind enough to keep responding to all of my other posts, including my jokes). Scorpion had pointed out to you, quoting chapter and verse, the many barbaric and downright evil injunctions in the Quran when it comes to unbelievers and “infidels”. For the longest time you tried to fob him off, and then, finally, you told him that those injunctions are in respect of infidels and unbelievers back during the time when the Quran was written, more than 1000 years ago. In saying that, you implicitly admitted that those injunctions are indefensible, but tried to twist away from criticism by claiming that they don’t apply to the present day and age.

Your argument is nonsensical, and I’m sure informed Quranic scholarship is unlikely to agree with you. But let’s just grant you what you say, for the sake of argument. Does it not then follow, following the same reasoning, that all of the injunctions in the Quran in respect of believers, too, have to do not with this present day and age but with the believers who lived at the time of the Quran, more than 1000 years ago? In which case it’s foolish of Mohammedans the world over to lead their lives in accordance with the Quran and the Hadiths, because those don’t apply to this present day and age!


Pardon the long stretch of bold font, but I wanted to highlight that portion so that you don’t have any excuse to skip that part, by latching on instead to some other inconsequential part of my post, as you’re wont to do. I’d like you to address that super-elementary, super-easy-to-follow argument, if you would.

That’s what I mean by saying you’re not engaging honestly. I’m not accusing you of dishonesty in any other broader terms, obviously; but only stating that you’ve repeatedly shown yourself lacking in intellectual integrity. Intellectual integrity means squarely facing up to arguments that go against you, and either addressing them satisfactorily, or else admitting your interlocutor’s point.

As far as the portion in bold font, I don’t see that you can get away from admitting either the one or the other. Either admit that the Quran does not apply to believers in this day and age; or else concede to Scorpion that you were wrong in telling him that the Quranic injunctions about infidels and unbelievers apply not to this day and age but to the time, more than 1000 years ago, when the Quran was written. Unless you can satisfactorily argue for some third conclusion.

What I’ve presented, above, is no more than a very lightweight argument, compared with the very many more substantial arguments put up here by other posters. While I’d like you to address it, if you would, but I’d also like you address all of the other uncomfortable arguments from others that you’ve tried to ignore. (When I say “I’d like you to do such and such”, I don’t mean that I personally care one way or the other, and it makes no difference to me personally, obviously; but only that that’s the done thing, and doing which would demonstrate your intellectual integrity, and show us that you’re here arguing sincerely and honestly, and not just preaching away.)
 
And for the record nobody is falling for the gibberish word salad routine.

I'm tired of people's grasp of English ebbing and flowing depend on whether or not they are being asked to explain something.
 
And right on cue:



:rolleyes:


Fine, let's just see what he might have to say if we ask him directly:

heydarian, Cosmic Yak's quoted you as saying that "God is very clear. Everything in the universe is a sign and work of God. Do not you see?"

Just spell it out, then. Just explain it clearly. How exactly is "everything in the universe" a sign of God? In what way do you see the "everything in the Universe" as some kind of evidence of God?

Go on, explain that, as clearly as you can. Let's see exactly what kind of thought process goes into forming that conclusion.
 
Hello dear philosopher
God is not the enemy of anyone. They were relatives and human beings. And they are now. Who are enemies with each other. They fight and bleed. They commit sin and corruption. God punishes them for a while so that they understand. Their approach is completely wrong and ugly. And behave according to human principles. Love each other.
Unfortunately, you do not read about the history of the Jewish and Abrahamic peoples. Please read the history books of these tribes. To understand what they did that God punished them. Unfortunately, do not judge one-sidedly. The plaintiff that you are, along with the complained that it is God, are both present in this court of yours.
Please do not just say what you say and do not misjudge. See that God has punished them for this. God hates war and bloodshed. And He severely torments those who wage war, bloodshed, and oppression. This is God's approach. And that's absolutely right. What do you do if someone invades your privacy? Do you welcome him? Or do you severely punish him? Answer please.
All human beings are servants of God. And are the privacy of God. If anyone wants to start a war and bloodshed, he will be severely punished. God is fully aware of the behavior of all human beings.
Thanks

Heydarian, You are talking bunk. Here are some verses from surah 8 which is entitled 'spoils of war' Your God demands spoils, and says he sent angels to fight unbelievers.



8.1 They ask thee concerning (things taken as) spoils of war. Say: "(such) spoils are at the disposal of God and the Apostle: So fear God, and keep straight the relations between yourselves: Obey God and His Apostle, if ye do believe."

8.9 Remember ye implored the assistance of your Lord, and He answered you: "I will assist you with a thousand of the angels, ranks on ranks."

8.12 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."


8.17 It is not ye who slew them; it was God: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but God's: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself: for God is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).



Utter rotten warmongering trash from the Quran surah 8, which you proclaim is the words of God. it even says it was God who slew the unbelievers.
 
Oh good the "No there was a talking snake because this book says so!" and the "No there was a flying horse because this book says so!" duo can go back and forth for 40 pages again and accomplish nothing.
 
The Old Testament is still the Bible, though. The god of the NT is the god of the OT, the one who murdered millions and ordered the Jews to murder more. It's the same god who made all the murderous rules about killing daughters and beating slaves. What's more, Jesus explicitly states that all of those laws still stand.
As I said, we must be working with different definitions of love.

And, yes, I am well aware of the lack of compassion and moral guidance in the Qur'an. That does not excuse the psychopathic tendencies of the Christian god.

Maybe God suffers from low blood sugar & someone got him a cookie sometime just before 0BC? I wonder if God can create a cookie so big that even he can say he'll save half for later & then not eat it all?
 
All of this message is completely correct. And I agree. In particular: I believe that all the discoveries of modern science in the twentieth century are predictions of the Qur'an in the seventh century.


And yet you have been unable to provide a single example of the Qur’an clearly predicting a 20th century scientific discovery.
 
And yet you have been unable to provide a single example of the Qur’an clearly predicting a 20th century scientific discovery.

But don't you see? He said "believe" which is a magic code word that removes from him (or his online persona, whichever I don't care) any requirements for evidence or logic or internal consistency.
 
But don't you see? He said "believe" which is a magic code word that removes from him (or his online persona, whichever I don't care) any requirements for evidence or logic or internal consistency.
"Faith" is what you do when you are scraping the very bottom of the barrel.

I prefer reason.
 
I am not interested in any more claims from you or questions from you. None of that, until you admit that you beliuefs are not supported by published science ...

... science is the method that mankind now uses to decide whether claims about anything in this universe are likely to be true vs unlikely to be true.

The explanations that we have from science are completely incompatible with your religious beliefs.

Science has produced the evidence to back that up a million time over-&-over-again. Your religious beliefs and claims have zero evidence.

I'm not interested in any other discussion except that crucial test of how all of science shows that your ancient religious beliefs are no more than uneducated ancient superstitions from an age of ignorance. That is the only honest discussion left here.

We fully accept science. Our religion and our religious book, the Qur'an, also fully accepts science. Unfortunately, there are many superstitions in our religion and in the interpretation and translation of the Qur'an. I gave examples of superstitions of religion and interpretation of the Qur'an. I do not believe in these superstitions at all. The scorpion helped to raise some of these superstitions. And I checked. And I replied that these are superstitions. In fact, the scorpion wants to say that these are superstitions. I accept that it is a superstition. And I do not believe in these superstitions.
Please answer my two questions...
Thanks
 
Fine, let's just see what he might have to say if we ask him directly:

heydarian, Cosmic Yak's quoted you as saying that "God is very clear. Everything in the universe is a sign and work of God. Do not you see?"

Just spell it out, then. Just explain it clearly. How exactly is "everything in the universe" a sign of God? In what way do you see the "everything in the Universe" as some kind of evidence of God?

Go on, explain that, as clearly as you can. Let's see exactly what kind of thought process goes into forming that conclusion.

Hello
God created the "single" from nothingness. The material world came into being with the expansion of the universe. Everything in the universe is made up of "single". The single was created by God. This is the claim of God in the Qur'an. Science has no answer yet. Do you know anyone other than God who created the single? Tell Us, who brought the single out of Nothing? And the universe was created. who? .....
Thanks
 
To the True Believer -- in the same sense as the True Scotsman -- since there can be no errors in their holy book, if something comes up in science that seems to disagree with it, he has these options:
  1. Science is wrong. If not now, it will be proven wrong sometime in the future, or
  2. Either science or the holy book has been misinterpreted or mistranslated, and another interpretation or translation will set things right.
If all else fails, then a miracle happens, and you can't prove it didn't happen. The one option he will not consider is that the holy book is written by ancient mortals and can be wrong.

There was a Christian apologist who wrote in the 1930-1950's era, based at the Moody Bible Institute, a fundamentalist think-tank and propaganda mill, Dr. Harry Rimmer. Some of his books are still in print. He is a very engaging writer, using the style of a preacher. Some of his arguments almost make sense; to the religious, they make total sense. But they tend to use quite twisted logic sometimes.

Heydarian's logic reminds me a little of Dr. Rimmer, although they are defending a different god and a different holy book.

Some of Rimmer's book titles: The Theory of Evolution and the Facts of Science, Science and the Genesis Record, Science and Jonah's Whale. In ToE he uses any scientific fact that supports biblical creation as proof of both. Any fact that does not support it is either faulty (see #1 above) or can be twisted to fit (#2).

So biblical "days" might be eras, not 24 hours; forming man from mud and spit might be a non-scientific description of evolution, and Jonah either had God's help and/or SCUBA gear and a very accommodating sea monster. Never considered: these are myths, fairy tales, or express the very limited knowledge of ignorant savages.

I'll give you one of my favorite examples from Rimmer. In the book of Job, God asks Job, (paraphrasing): "Where were you when I created the heaven and earth, when the morning stars sang together and the angels shouted for joy?" (Job 38:7)

Sure, you can chalk this up to poetic metaphor (stars don't sing and who knows what angels can do?), but Rimmer goes further. He points out the characteristics of the magnetic spectrum, where sound and light can be described as differing values of vibrations. Using that interpretation, stars "sing" using light and maybe angels do, too. Of course God knew that, but mortal biblical authors did not, which proves both the scientific value of Job and the supernatural source. Clever!

I'd like to give another example of this thinking method. I was once acquainted with a noted Hebrew scholar, Rabbi Dr. Israel Scharfman. He often said to me, excitedly, "I love science!"

At his invitation, one day he eagerly accepted my challenge. I reminded Dr. Scharfman of the end of Noah's 40 day journey, when he was leaving the Ark. The good Rabbi pulled out his huge Torah, which was printed with English on one page, and the Hebrew version on the facing page so we could both follow along with either language.

We turned to the passage where God gave his promise, sealed by the rainbow, to never flood the Earth again. I asked, "Did rainbows exist before the flood?"

"No, they came into existence only after the flood and His promise."

And you know how white light can be split into a rainbow with a prism?

"Of course. That's science!"

Then how do you explain how all the light from distant stars that we can see with our modern telescopes, arriving to us after thousands or millions of years, still can be split into the rainbow? Did it change in mid-flight? Or did it start out as a rainbow, and the Torah is wrong?

Dr. Scharfman thought about it for a minute. Then he told me,

"God cannot be wrong, but I don't doubt science, either. Therefore, all light must have changed its structure on the way to Earth, at the time of Noah."

Everything is so simple as long as you have faith.
 
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We fully accept science. Our religion and our religious book, the Qur'an, also fully accepts science. Unfortunately, there are many superstitions in our religion and in the interpretation and translation of the Qur'an. I gave examples of superstitions of religion and interpretation of the Qur'an. I do not believe in these superstitions at all. The scorpion helped to raise some of these superstitions. And I checked. And I replied that these are superstitions. In fact, the scorpion wants to say that these are superstitions. I accept that it is a superstition. And I do not believe in these superstitions.
Please answer my two questions...
Thanks


No! ... the time for such discussions is over.

The only honest thing left for you to do in this thread is to admit that all of published science is against your claims of having evidence of God (evidence from the Quran, according to you) ...

... out all the hundreds of thousands of papers in core science, none of them claim any such evidence of finding God/Allah ... are you, or are you not, going to admit that all of science is against your claims?
 
Hello
God created the "single" from nothingness. The material world came into being with the expansion of the universe. Everything in the universe is made up of "single". The single was created by God. This is the claim of God in the Qur'an. Science has no answer yet. Do you know anyone other than God who created the single? Tell Us, who brought the single out of Nothing? And the universe was created. who? .....
Thanks


******* amazing.

Yet again you ignore an argument that you'd need to face squarely, in my post #2826 --- despite the fact that I'd littered it rather obscenely with an otherwise rude-looking stretch of bold-fonted shouting, precisely so you couldn't pretend, either to yourself or to us, that you hadn't noticed it --- and latch on instead to a relatively less onerous argument in the attempt to put up a pretense of engagement.


See? This is exactly the kind of intellectual dishonesty I was referring to. How do you justify to yourself this kind of lack of intellectual integrity, heydarian, how do you manage to live and function with this kind of intellectual dishonesty?



I'll be happy to address this post of yours, which after all is you attempting to respond to something I'd myself asked you, but only after you clearly address my post #2826 first.
 
Hello to all dear teammates I am very sorry about Russia's war with Ukraine. I hope this fire of war will end as soon as possible. My condolences to all dear Ukrainian citizens. And I wish them all good health.
 
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