Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[Andy_Ross]

The problem is, the JAIC report declares that on the day of departure, the Estonia was seaworthy and that there were no outstanding issues.
According to it's certification at the time it was seaworthy.

If you read the report you will see that it goes on to show why it wasn't seaworthy, what the problems were and why the certification in Sweden and Finland at the time was not fit for purpose due to domestic legislation exempting certain ships from SOLAS compliance and a lax and inadequate enforcement regime.

But then, you haven't read the report so you don't know this.

 

[Andy_Ross]

As I said standards now are twenty-seven years after the accident. Do read what I wrote.

So what are the standards now?
What were they then?

If you don't know what they are why mention them?

 

[Vixen]

And what has that got to do with the fact that the windows on the Estonia were broken by waves and not by wind?

The claim Estonia sank because the windows and inner dividers on Deck 4 and 5 broke as she was floating on her beams for twenty minutes is begging the question. A purely hypothetical scenario to stick rigidly to the 'fault in the bow visor' Day One announcement.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Did you not know that the CIA, MI6 and the Swedish intelligence services were assisting Estonia in setting up its own, having kicked out the KGB and the newly named one?

So what? We're talking about the coverup of the Estonia disaster, remember? The one you insist was initiated by Carl Bildt mere days before he left office, and that everybody else continued to play along with well after for some reason.

You can't have it both ways. Either Bildt is the villain of the piece, or somebody more deep-statey is and Bildt is just a bit-player at the beginning of the story. He can't be both Sidious and Jar-Jar. Pick a narrative. And whichever one you pick, you have to explain why the players continued to play for nearly three years after Bildt left office. Which also means you need to identify those players and explain their motives.

I've yet to hear you explain what Ingvar Carlsson's role was in all this.

 

[Vixen]

So what are the standards now?
What were they then?

If you don't know what they are why mention them?

There are plenty of research papers on the subject.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The claim Estonia sank because the windows and inner dividers on Deck 4 and 5 broke as she was floating on her beams for twenty minutes is begging the question. A purely hypothetical scenario to stick rigidly to the 'fault in the bow visor' Day One announcement.

It is not claimed that Estonia sank because the windows and inner dividers on deck 4 and 5 broke.

That is something you just made up.

By th etime it was on it's beam it was already well on the way to sinking.

 

[Mojo]

There is a direct relationship between how high the wind is (m/s, mph) and the force of a wave. In addition, it also drives direction, thus a southwesterly wind drives a wave in a southwesterly direction.

The direction of the wind or a wave is always in the direction from which the wind is coming from.

IOW a southwesterly is coming from the south west and a northerly from the north.

One of these statements is not like the other.

 

[Vixen]

So what? We're talking about the coverup of the Estonia disaster, remember? The one you insist was initiated by Carl Bildt mere days before he left office, and that everybody else continued to play along with well after for some reason.

You can't have it both ways. Either Bildt is the villain of the piece, or somebody more deep-statey is and Bildt is just a bit-player at the beginning of the story. He can't be both Sidious and Jar-Jar. Pick a narrative.

The military chief remained as Svensson. Carlsson (or was it Persson) simply took on the role of democratically elected Prime Minister. A prime minster advised by his military 'advisors' is not going to rock the boat, or may not even be in a position to.

 

[Andy_Ross]

There are plenty of research papers on the subject.

But you are the one that brought it up. If you don't know what they were ort are now, why mention them?

 

[JesseCuster]

The claim Estonia sank because the windows and inner dividers on Deck 4 and 5 broke as she was floating on her beams for twenty minutes is begging the question. A purely hypothetical scenario to stick rigidly to the 'fault in the bow visor' Day One announcement.

And what has that to do with your rambling about wind speeds, wind being the cause of waves, wind knocking over power lines and trees, etc. which is what the post you responded to was asking about?

 

[Andy_Ross]

The military chief remained as Svensson. Carlsson (or was it Persson) simply took on the role of democratically elected Prime Minister. A prime minster advised by his military 'advisors' is not going to rock the boat, or may not even be in a position to.

So your claim is the PM was a puppet under the control of the military?

 

[JesseCuster]

The direction of the wind or a wave is always in the direction from which the wind is coming from.

IOW a southwesterly is coming from the south west and a northerly from the north.

But you said that a southwesterly wind drives waves in a southwesterly direction, which the post you responded to was correcting you about.

 

[Vixen]

But you are the one that brought it up. If you don't know what they were ort are now, why mention them?

A poster wanted to understand how glass on a passenger ferry can be made to specifications designed to withstand high winds speeds and crashing waves. I was pointing out that the strength of a window is measurable and safety features, such as durability under great pressure can have international standards applied to them.

 

[GlennB]

There is a direct relationship between how high the wind is (m/s, mph) and the force of a wave. In addition, it also drives direction, thus a southwesterly wind drives a wave in a southwesterly direction.

The direction of the wind or a wave is always in the direction from which the wind is coming from.

Putting your two statements together, we're left with the (roughly) southwesterly winds of storm Eunice causing waves to hit the SW coast of Britain while they are travelling in a (roughly) southwesterly direction.

How strange. All of the many films and photos I've seen of those waves show them very distinctly travelling in a NE direction, i.e. following the path that the wind is taking.

If that had said from then you'd only be guilty of stating the bleeding obvious. As it is, you look stupid.

 

[Vixen]

So your claim is the PM was a puppet under the control of the military?

A head of state occupying a fixed-term of a few years will have advisors in the defence services and these are often long-serving generals who have the intelligence services advising them in turn.

In the USA these military chiefs and high appointees are appointed by the current POTUS. For example, Republican Bush appointed General Powell. Ditto the Supreme Court Judges. In Europe, the prime ministers in monarchies such as the UK or Sweden are stuck with the generals, admirals and high court judges that come with the job.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

The military chief remained as Svensson. Carlsson (or was it Persson) simply took on the role of democratically elected Prime Minister. A prime minster advised by his military 'advisors' is not going to rock the boat, or may not even be in a position to.

That's also all Bildt was, but for some reason, you seem determined to make him the villain of the piece. The generals don't even come up until somebody reminds you how short Bildt was at the time of the disaster. Once you think people have forgotten that detail, it'll be back to Bildt this and Bildt that.

 

[Vixen]

That's also all Bildt was, but for some reason, you seem determined to make him the villain of the piece. The generals don't even come up until somebody reminds you how short Bildt was at the time of the disaster. Once you think people have forgotten that detail, it'll be back to Bildt this and Bildt that.

Bildt as Prime Minister is responsible for communicating with the public. It has nothing to do with 'villain' or 'hero'. The public do not like being lied to. Think of Bush or Blair with their claim of 'Weapons of Mass Destruction'. OK, so these guys will justify their lies by claiming they were acting honourably 'in the public's interest' but isn't honesty the best policy? Having been found out, just come clean and say sorry to the public and to all those people made to fight in Iraq or who lost loved ones on the Estonia.

 

[Andy_Ross]

A poster wanted to understand how glass on a passenger ferry can be made to specifications designed to withstand high winds speeds and crashing waves. I was pointing out that the strength of a window is measurable and safety features, such as durability under great pressure can have international standards applied to them.

We know that, the glass on windows high in the superstructure is not of the same thickness or strength of that lower in the ship.

 

[Andy_Ross]

In Europe, the prime ministers in monarchies such as the UK or Sweden are stuck with the generals, admirals and high court judges that come with the job.

Is that true of all the countries in Europe?

Is it your claim the the PM is a puppet of the military?

You didn't answer my question.

 

[Vixen]

We know that, the glass on windows high in the superstructure is not of the same thickness or strength of that lower in the ship.

Each structure would need to be assessed on its own merits and what it is being used for. The lower windows are traditionally port holes but there is no edict that says they have to be.

There is a research paper here into the various issues, which mentions Estonia.

Janne Heiskari
On the design criteria of large insulating glass structures in cruise
ships