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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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Vixen said:
I have been in the North Sea in ferocious weather and have also been adrift in the Baltic, once in a rowing boat and another occasion in a speedboat, with no sign of any land in sight.
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In any of those situations were you ever aware of the deck pitching fore and aft as the ship or boat rode over the waves?

Just checking if you appreciate this is a thing ships can do.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
In any of those situations were you ever aware of the deck pitching fore and aft as the ship or boat rode over the waves?

Just checking if you appreciate this is a thing ships can do.
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Surely not?
 

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Jack by the hedge said:
My house windows are impervious to solvent liquids like petrol or diesel but if a bus hits them the windows will smash. It is diesel which powers the bus and diesel is very powerful.

This is how ridiculous your argument is. You have gleaned one fact from somewhere about the windows' wind load capacity and wave it around like a magic talisman as if to imply the windows were indestructible.
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Take a minute to reflect why storms at sea (or even inland) are measured in terms of

  1. wind speed
  2. direction

Take a moment to understand the direct proportional relationship between wind speed and the effect it has on waves.

Thus if you know windspeed over 25 m/s causes waves to smash a window of a ship, then you, as a designer, ensure your windows are reinforced to withstand wind speeds of 41 m/s , or within 99.9 percent probability range it will never get that high.


Of course water is heavier than air but air acting on water meets a resistance that is proportionate to the power of the wind driving it, thus a windspeed of 40 m/s does not cause a similar speed of 40 m/s in a wave. Sometimes only one parameter is needed (wind speed) for you to know the type of force this will create in a wave.
 
Vixen said:
Take a minute to reflect why storms at sea (or even inland) are measured in terms of

  1. wind speed
  2. direction

Take a moment to understand the direct proportional relationship between wind speed and the effect it has on waves.

Thus if you know windspeed over 25 m/s causes waves to smash a window of a ship, then you, as a designer, ensure your windows are reinforced to withstand wind speeds of 41 m/s , or within 99.9 percent probability range it will never get that high.

Of course water is heavier than air but air acting on water meets a resistance that is proportionate to the power of the wind driving it, thus a windspeed of 40 m/s does not cause a similar speed of 40 m/s in a wave. Sometimes only one parameter is needed (wind speed) for you to know the type of force this will create in a wave.
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Royally missing the point. It's presumed that some windows will never meet the full force of a wave, i.e. they will only encounter spray.

eta: My garden greenhouse is a good example. It survived the driving rain of storm Eunice but would probably smash or at least get a pane of glass dislodged if I threw a bucketworth of water at it hard enough.
 
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Vixen said:
There is a direct relationship between how high the wind is (m/s, mph) and the force of a wave. In addition, it also drives direction, thus a southwesterly wind drives a wave in a southwesterly direction..
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But what's your point?

The wind didn't break the windows, the waves did, so the windspeed that the windows were designed to withstand is irrelevant.
 
Vixen said:
I have been in the North Sea in ferocious weather and have also been adrift in the Baltic, once in a rowing boat and another occasion in a speedboat, with no sign of any land in sight.
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To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, to be adrift in the Baltic once may be regarded as a misfortune…
 
Vixen said:
Of course water is heavier than air but air acting on water meets a resistance that is proportionate to the power of the wind driving it, thus a windspeed of 40 m/s does not cause a similar speed of 40 m/s in a wave. Sometimes only one parameter is needed (wind speed) for you to know the type of force this will create in a wave.
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So tell us, oh wise one, what do you calculate is the amount of wave force that windows designed to withstand 41m/s will be able to withstand under the conditions of that the Estonia was sailing in that night?

Thrill us with your acumen.
 
Vixen said:
Take a minute to reflect why storms at sea (or even inland) are measured in terms of

  1. wind speed
  2. direction

Take a moment to understand the direct proportional relationship between wind speed and the effect it has on waves.

Thus if you know windspeed... <snipped for brevity>
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Now you wish to pretend to know there is a simple, direct relationship between wind speed and wave energy and that the windows were actually designed to withstand both 41m/s winds and the waves that would create.

No. That is a complete invention you just pulled from your backside.

If the bus only had 10 litres of diesel instead of 200 litres, would my windows withstand it?
 
None of that makes any sense it's gibberish.

The draught of a ship is taken as the portion of the hull below the water.

The 'air draught' is the total height of the ship above the waterline.

Where are you getting this 8 inches from? previously you have mentioned it in relation to the coaming height of doorways and hatches on the deck.
 
Vixen said:
It is wind that drives the waves. Wind is extremely powerful.
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But it wasn't the wind that broke the windows, it was the waves.

A cubic meter of water weighs a ton. Think of the volume hitting the windows and the velocity of the water.

How does that compare to the wind?
 
Vixen said:
There is a direct relationship between how high the wind is (m/s, mph) and the force of a wave. In addition, it also drives direction, thus a southwesterly wind drives a wave in a southwesterly direction.

The reason the wave smashed through the Hamburg ferry window with such force was because - hello?!!! - Storm Eunice* was currently in progress throughout northern Europe!!!!


The wave didn't come from nowhere!!!


*Probably called something else in those parts.
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But the wind didn't break the ferry window. We know this because the wind was already blowing against the windows and they weren't breaking.
 
Vixen said:
I have been in the North Sea in ferocious weather and have also been adrift in the Baltic, once in a rowing boat and another occasion in a speedboat, with no sign of any land in sight.
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And I have spent weeks weathering Atlantic storms with the bows of the ship pitching in to waves that came right over the deck and in to the bridge.

Just like this



This is a ship designed to weather a head sea and the force of the waves. But, to do it they slow right down to reduce the force of the impact. Driving at speed into waves increases the pitching which increases the force on the hull.

Here is film of a Destroyer forcing it's way in to the waves to get ahead of the Carrier it is escorting. This isn't even a storm but see how the pitching is increased by forcing in to the waves with too much speed?

Now, imagine the effect in a storm and on a Ferry with short, bluff bows not designed for such things.

 
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The windows in question were never expected to be hit by anything worse than spray, being four decks up and toward the stern. They weren't expected to resist waves pounding against them.

Vixen clings to her windspeed factoid like a lifebelt and seeks a way to make it seem relevant to the situation where the drifting, listing ship put those windows broadside on to the waves. Sadly it's not relevant at all.

I mean, if I had the skills to convert a 41m/s windspeed rating into a static load against those large panes, I could have a go at estimating how deep an immersion they might resist, but I wouldn't even know where to begin with the dynamic loads of pounding waves. The remark upthread about a greenhouse which withstands wind and driving rain but likely wouldn't survive having a bucketful of water thrown at it is a nice comparison.
 
Off we go down the garden path again.

Once that wheeled submarine sent by a power greater than any government made a whacking great hole in the hull below/above the waterline the condition of some windows at any point afterwards became totally irrelevant.
 
Vixen said:
Take a minute to reflect why storms at sea (or even inland) are measured in terms of

  1. wind speed
  2. direction

Take a moment to understand the direct proportional relationship between wind speed and the effect it has on waves.

Thus if you know windspeed over 25 m/s causes waves to smash a window of a ship, then you, as a designer, ensure your windows are reinforced to withstand wind speeds of 41 m/s , or within 99.9 percent probability range it will never get that high.


Of course water is heavier than air but air acting on water meets a resistance that is proportionate to the power of the wind driving it, thus a windspeed of 40 m/s does not cause a similar speed of 40 m/s in a wave. Sometimes only one parameter is needed (wind speed) for you to know the type of force this will create in a wave.
Click to expand...

It 's nothing to do with the wind speed. You are just gibbering.

Stop embarrasing yourself.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
The windows in question were never expected to be hit by anything worse than spray, being four decks up and toward the stern. They weren't expected to resist waves pounding against them.

Vixen clings to her windspeed factoid like a lifebelt and seeks a way to make it seem relevant to the situation where the drifting, listing ship put those windows broadside on to the waves. Sadly it's not relevant at all.

I mean, if I had the skills to convert a 41m/s windspeed rating into a static load against those large panes, I could have a go at estimating how deep an immersion they might resist, but I wouldn't even know where to begin with the dynamic loads of pounding waves. The remark upthread about a greenhouse which withstands wind and driving rain but likely wouldn't survive having a bucketful of water thrown at it is a nice comparison.
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What is good about this is that the video of the ferry shows the window breaking when the wave hits but not breaking when it is subject to just the wind.
 
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Vixen said:
And they are not 'bow visors pounding the forepeak deck', either.
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You asserted the word "bang" was used in interviews to mean explosions. That was just speculation. That "bang" doesn't mean something else does not help you be correct.
 
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