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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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That it was striking that a relatively lowly crew member was wheeled out to earnestly explain to the watching millions the cause of the accident, given that we know he cannot possibly have been on the deck 'handing out life jackets and calming people down' as he claims in these interviews as his story to the police and the JAIC was that he was down on Deck 0 the entire time (to fix toilets) and only left the ship at 0130, via the funnel, which bypassed going anywhere near the decks. Strangely, he also managed to grab his wallet, passport and survival suit on the way.


1) Do you really not know/understand the difference between "lowly" and "low in height"?

2) He was not "wheeled out" to do anything. He was interviewed by the media at the on-shore scene. And he subsequently gave evidence - as a witness - to JAIC investigators. Entirely normal. The JAIC didn't treat him as an "expert". But they gave his witness testimony the weight it deserved, and it helped them to build a picture of what happened that night.
 
The several hundred pages of wave impact calculations and bow visor specifications were just window-dressing to pad out the report and give it some kind of plausibility.


What experience and qualifications do you have to say that the calculations and testing are just 'window dressing'?

Why haven't any of the organisations that used the report as the basis for their changes to legislation regarding ship construction and safety noticed that they are just 'window dressing'?

Is the SSPA Maritime Dynamics Laboratory now part of the conspiracy?

https://www.sspa.se/our-facilities-and-tools/maritime-dynamics-laboratory

What about the IMO and SOLAS who enacted new standards requirements for ship design and construction based on the report findings and recommendations, are they part of the conspiracy?

https://www.imo.org/

How about Bureau Veritas who implement and oversee SOLAS and IMO certification around the globe, are they also part of the conspiracy?

https://group.bureauveritas.com/
 
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There was a 'My Skylight' alarm, so the German shipbuilder's belief that what Sillaste saw was merely the spray from the drench fire alarm systems hitting the CCTV lenses, both of which were high up at ceiling level, is a credible one.

So a reasonable alternative explanation of what the motor man saw.

That's a really long reach for an excuse. There was no fire alarm. There was an alert for the emergency crews, one of whose jobs is fire alerts. But there was no fire and no fire alarm. No reason for sprinklers to be activated. Not a plausible excuse for pretending Sillaste did not see what he drew.
 
There was a 'My Skylight' alarm, so the German shipbuilder's belief that what Sillaste saw was merely the spray from the drench fire alarm systems hitting the CCTV lenses, both of which were high up at ceiling level, is a credible one.

So a reasonable alternative explanation of what the motor man saw.

Are we back to the Mr Skylight?

It was shown previously that the cal is used for a number of situations.
It was not used as a fire alarm on the night of the sinking.

I am surprised you would try to insert this back in.

The safety manual for the ship is included in the supplementary documents.

It states that the Mr Skylight call is used to alert the groups. When the call is given the fire groups go to their positions and "At these alarms also gathers the boat group at the boat deck"
In the section on grounding, collision or leaking it says "Announce Mr Skylight one and two"
picture.php
 
That is what the JAIC did. It stuck resolutely to the Herald of Free Enterprise blueprint and never once deviated from it. The several hundred pages of wave impact calculations and bow visor specifications were just window-dressing to pad out the report and give it some kind of plausibility. Taking three years to publish it helped keep up the subterfuge that they were working really really hard on finding out the cause of the accident.

How on earth is Sillaste and Linde the star witnesses, when it had Piht and Lieger?

It knew, of course, on Day One, the cause of the accident. And it was not a few strong waves...


Complete and utter bollocks.

There was a very clear initial suspicion about what had happened. But the JAIC investigators did not take that as their a priori conclusion then look for evidence to support it.

Think of it perhaps this way: imagine that police were called to a house where they found a wife dead on the kitchen floor having been stabbed to death, and the husband with blood on his arms and hands and scratches on his hands and face.

The police would, entirely reasonably, strongly suspect that the wife had murdered by the husband - because that is what the initial evidence suggested. But the police would not decide that this was definitely what had happened, then go on a selective evidence hunt to support their theory. Instead, they'd park their initial hunch and set about gathering all available evidence - and they'd only come to a proper investigative conclusion based on an objective (and not suspect-centric) evaluation of the evidence.


Exactly the same sort of process happened with the Estonia disaster. There was fairly reliable evidence - within hours of the sinking - that the bow visor had detached from the ship and the bow ramp had been yanked open as well. And the investigators knew very well that this was immediately a viable cause (just as, if you know an aircraft's vertical tail fin fell off in flight, this is immediately a viable cause of the aircraft crashing).

But then they set about gathering evidence and witness testimony. They discovered within days that the bow visor was indeed separated from the ship, and lying on the sea bed a considerable distance away from the main wreckage. They could also see the damage to the bow ramp. And, piece by piece, their evidence pointed in one - and only one - direction: that the ship sank because the bow visor and bow ramp failed, allowing the vehicle deck to flood very quickly via the open bow; the combination of water on the vehicle deck (with associated free surface effect) and the mass of water that had travelled down from the vehicle deck to the decks below, ultimately caused a sufficient loss of buoyancy and stability to capsize the ship.


The JAIC investigators, and their experts, were well capable of using proper investigative methods and protocols to reach their conclusion. And they reached the correct conclusion. By contrast, you're hopelessly adrift here - you appear not to understand even the most simple/basic scientific principles at play, let alone perform cogent analysis - so your opinions about why the ship sank are, literally, worthless.
 
...
In the section on grounding, collision or leaking it says "Announce Mr Skylight one and two"
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=672&pictureid=13031[/qimg]

Just out of curiosity, what does point 5 "Deck repairmen sound tank..." mean? Is that checking water levels in ballast tanks?
 
That is what the JAIC did. It stuck resolutely to the Herald of Free Enterprise blueprint and never once deviated from it. The several hundred pages of wave impact calculations and bow visor specifications were just window-dressing to pad out the report and give it some kind of plausibility. Taking three years to publish it helped keep up the subterfuge that they were working really really hard on finding out the cause of the accident.

How on earth is Sillaste and Linde the star witnesses, when it had Piht and Lieger?

It knew, of course, on Day One, the cause of the accident. And it was not a few strong waves...

There isn't a true sentence in that whole steaming pile.
 
Oh dear. A totally illiterate interpretation of the laws of physics.

I remind you again that your level of physics is that you think that suspending a paper on a wall with three pins is an adequate analogy for the physics of the bow visor in water.

During my undergrad days I took two university level courses in physics and passed them with an average grade (3/5 both). However, you won't see me arguing about physics on this or in any other forum. That is not just because I have forgotten most of what I learned back then, it is because those two courses didn't go deep enough to details. Even if I still had 100% of the knowledge that was taught on those two courses, I would be unqualified to comment on specific models that weren't a part of them.

I know that I'm unqualified to discuss almost all physical models. You are unqualified too, but you don't know it.
 
That's a really long reach for an excuse. There was no fire alarm. There was an alert for the emergency crews, one of whose jobs is fire alerts. But there was no fire and no fire alarm. No reason for sprinklers to be activated. Not a plausible excuse for pretending Sillaste did not see what he drew.

As we see in the manual, the duty of the fire group includes in the event of a collision, grounding or leak to start checking the ship from the stern forwards.
 
Well, everything that hasn't be refuted in the last 15 minutes can be assumed to be true.


Person A: The Sun orbits the Earth

Person B: No, the Earth Orbits the Sun

(Person B then provides detailed supporting evidence, with reference to distant stars and solar occlusions)


Two weeks later......

Person A: The Sun orbits the Earth
 
As you are well aware, Capt. Andresson's employment contract would not be in the public domain.

Straw man. The question is whether you have seen the contract and can thus knowledgeably claim what it contains. You have not apparently seen it, so your statements about what it constrains the captain to do is speculation. In your case, ignorant speculation..
 
No, there is nothing complex about it. There are set formulae. Just feed them into a computer modelling program.

Which is one of the many things I do for a living, and have done successfully for decades. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, or how easy it is to get right.
 
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