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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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Vixen said:
It is not a slogan, it is how ships are designed.
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You haven't shown that you're competent to discuss ship design and the dynamics of stability. I tried several times to continue the discussion you raised by referring to a YouTube video, but you couldn't even restate its principles without getting almost literally everything wrong. I asked you a number of follow-up questions to see whether you could extend that knowledge to new circumstances. You ignored them.

If you design a ship to float on its side, you are ipso facto getting rid of the crucial righting mechanism. Plain sight should tell you that a vessel the size of the Estonia will not float on its side...
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No. "Plain sight" is not the mechanism of understanding. You started a discussion of metacentric height and righting moments, but it's clear you don't understand how stability nodes work. Obviously ships are designed so that the principal stability node is upright. And schooner-type hulls -- the kind most used in the examples of the GZ model of intact-hull stability -- have an additional stability node when turtled, but none on their sides. But other hull shapes can have more than two stability nodes. A ship won't be designed to purposely float on its side. But it can, if the hull cross-section provides a stability node there.

No seaworthy vessel will float on its side as that is not what it is designed to do. Wrong dynamics all together.
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You are factually incorrect. The GZ model of transverse stability is only a starting point. Since no large ship hull is intact, you need to extend your understanding to account for how ships actually behave. You haven't shown that you're willing and able to do so. But for some reason you seem to think you're the teacher here.

Try it out on a toy boat and test the principles for yourself.
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Toy boats have little to do with actual ships. Nor do planks, or any of the other analogues you've tried to deploy. You wave your hands generally toward the mathematics, but in the final analysis you're just trying to intuit your way along.

If you insist on doing that, forget the plank. Consider a block of wood with a square cross section. Mark one side as arbitrarily upright and float it. Tip it slightly in the water. Will it return to upright? Yes, that's the transverse righting moment at work. Now tip it past its critical angle. Does it turn turtle, or does it float "on its side?" Your identification of one surface as the "deck" was purely arbitrary. The physics of the situation show that such a cross-section will have four stability nodes, and the mathematics bear this out.
 
JayUtah said:
I'm genuinely interested in what Vixen hopes to accomplish by bringing up the same claims over and over again as if they were never previously discussed.
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IMO Vixen has no recognition that these claims were previously discussed. Vixen genuinely thinks these are new points being brought up for the first time. There is a history of posts in these threads that leads to that conclusion.
 
So now there is a €15m Finnish 8-part series being made about the Estonia disaster. I understand one of the directors is the same guy who did Bordertown (Netflix). This was set near the border of Finland and Russia (Lappeenranta IIRC) and thus had a lot of Russian-culture input in the form of cops and criminals. In the Scandinavian style of Wallander and Larsson, he is 'crime noir'. In other words, lots of 'social issues' content and 'cop as human' with 'relatable' family, health, work and personal problems.

I'm guessing there'll be the usual 'love interest' and much Danish-style political shenanigans (well, that would be true to life).

THE CAR FERRY M / S Estonia sank in the Finnish sea area in September 1994. The most expensive drama series made in Finland is described as a major accident . The budget is approaching 15 million euros, informs C More.

The most expensive series in Finland have been in the order of ten million euros.

The framework report for the forthcoming series will be built around the accident investigation. Eight episodes monitor the survival of several individuals. The series shows the sinking of a ship and the rescue of passengers.

Filming lasts from May to early fall. Filming will take place in Finland, Sweden and Estonia. Marine scenes are filmed in studios focusing on water scenes in Belgium.

The editor -in-chief and director of THE SERIES is Miikko Oikkonen , known from the series of detective stories . The responsibility for directing is shared by Juuso Syrjä , who made Sorjo , and the Swedish series Snabba Cashin Måns Månsson .
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HS

That's not to say it'll be the usual predictable stuff.
 
JayUtah said:
I'm genuinely interested in what Vixen hopes to accomplish by bringing up the same claims over and over again as if they were never previously discussed.
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I'm sure we've all met people who will defend a position to the death rather than admit to fault or error.
 
Jukkelus said:
Thanks for the welcome.

This youtube .com/watch?v=V5tbah19qo8 (sorry the mangled link, I don't have link posting priviliges yet) recording proves otherwise. They mention someone having their carrier wave on but they can still communicate.



:jaw-dropp Yes, explosives are commonly used to excavate rocky Finnish ground. No, they are definately not readily available. Explosives, firearms, bullets and gunpowder are strictly controlled in Finland. The only dynamite you can buy without being licensed exploder is "snail dynamite" what is an expanding mortar used to crack rocks concrete.

The only occasion when unlicensed fireworks are allowed is New Year's Eve from 18-02. Of course with a license you can have fireworks display whenever you want if "forest fire warning" is not in effect. I haven't heard of fireworks being a May Day tradition anywhere in Finland.

I can't comprehend how you can compare fireworks with the supposed demolition explosives on Estonia. Fireworks contain what, tens to low hundreds grams of black powder (low explosive) going off on ground or tens of meters in air. In my understanding, having high explosives going off in enclosed space of the car deck would cause the underwater part of the hull to reverbate and radiate sound into the sea.




Yes, they heard a series of metallic bangs. That was the now-unlocked bow visor slamming against the hull before shearing completely off.
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It is commonly easily available, even in the UK ('FIXOR'). You were the one who said that your pyrotechnics were registered with the coast guard, as underwater explosions. When you said it was a graduation party I presumed you meant Vappu.

I agree the sensors might well have picked up a sound of someone applying an explosive to the car ramp...if they had been listening and identified what that sound was.

Yes, any explosive applied to steel will have a metallic sound, so that is one thing we can agree on.

A 55-tonne visor crashing on the hull would not reverberate around a 55,000 tonne vessel and be likened to a series of bangs.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Estonia did not 'float on it's side' it sank.
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If it immediately capsized having passed the point of stability, how come it had to wait twenty minutes for its windows* and inner dividers (>700 individual cabins) to break and allow ingress of water in order to weight it down enough, whilst floating on its side?

*Windows on these cruisers are made to withstand wind speeds of 41 m/s. The wind speed on that night was 15 to 20 m/s (29 to 39 kn; 34 to 45 mph) and once the ship was at 90° it was no longer in the direct path of the wind.
 
Vixen said:
If it immediately capsized having passed the point of stability, how come it had to wait twenty minutes for its windows* and inner dividers (>700 individual cabins) to break and allow ingress of water in order to weight it down enough, whilst floating on its side?

*Windows on these cruisers are made to withstand wind speeds of 41 m/s. The wind speed on that night was 15 to 20 m/s (29 to 39 kn; 34 to 45 mph) and once the ship was at 90° it was no longer in the direct path of the wind.
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Are you unable to understand the possibility that 'sinking' is something which might take time, rather than being necessarily instantaneous?
 
Vixen said:
*Windows on these cruisers are made to withstand wind speeds of 41 m/s. The wind speed on that night was 15 to 20 m/s (29 to 39 kn; 34 to 45 mph) and once the ship was at 90° it was no longer in the direct path of the wind.
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Maybe something else was exerting pressure on the windows at that time...
 
zooterkin said:
Are you unable to understand the possibility that 'sinking' is something which might take time, rather than being necessarily instantaneous?
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The probability of sinking fast is only high when certain parameters are met.

Imagine you are in a rowing boat. A sudden wave capsizes it. Do you really believe it floats on its side for twenty minutes or even for one minute before sinking to the bottom like a stone?

Of course you don't believe it.
 
Oh hey, Vixen is back and still isn't answering the multitude of questions put to her months ago.

Pathetic.
 
Vixen said:
If it immediately capsized having passed the point of stability, how come it had to wait twenty minutes for its windows* and inner dividers (>700 individual cabins) to break and allow ingress of water in order to weight it down enough, whilst floating on its side?
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Remember that time I asked if you knew how to calculate flood rate? What was your answer?

*Windows on these cruisers are made to withstand wind speeds of 41 m/s.
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And that is relevant why?
 
Vixen said:
It is commonly easily available, even in the UK ('FIXOR'). You were the one who said that your pyrotechnics were registered with the coast guard, as underwater explosions. When you said it was a graduation party I presumed you meant Vappu.
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Where can I buy 'FIXOR' in the UK?

Yes, any explosive applied to steel will have a metallic sound, so that is one thing we can agree on.
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What is your evidence for an explosive applied to steel having a 'metallic' sound?

A 55-tonne visor crashing on the hull would not reverberate around a 55,000 tonne vessel and be likened to a series of bangs.
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What is your evidence for this?
I have direct experience of an anchor slamming home in to a hawse pipe sounding through the hull of a ship.

Stop making stuff up .
 
Vixen said:
The probability of sinking fast is only high when certain parameters are met.
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What qualifications do you have that enable you to attempt to teach those parameters to others?

Imagine you are in a rowing boat. A sudden wave capsizes it. Do you really believe it floats on its side for twenty minutes or even for one minute before sinking to the bottom like a stone?

Of course you don't believe it.
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Of course I don't because I know the difference in potential flood rates between different kinds of vessels, especially those of vastly different size, mass, and hull design. If you actually knew the "parameters" instead of assuming your intuition covers it all, you'd understand why we don't believe you.
 
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