Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[JesseCuster]

An assumption is something that you have taken for granted. For example, a belief Moik had seen the TV newsclip featuring Piht. An inference that he left his job shortly after the interview was because of the things he had said about his employers during it.

You didn't say that you inferred that he left his job shortly after the interview because of the things he said about his employers during it.

You said the following:

The guy who recognised him on TV in Rostock was Captain Moik. He was sacked for saying so in an interview.

You were quite clear that he was sacked for saying that he saw Piht on TV.

You're now backing off that claim to a rather vaguer and lesser claim that you still haven't provided evidence of.

Do you have evidence that Moik was fired by Estline because he said he saw Piht on TV?

 

[Darat]

I'm reminding all members contributing that we have a rule 12. Argue the opinions, the arguments not the member.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

 

[Steve]

You didn't say that you inferred that he left his job shortly after the interview because of the things he said about his employers during it.

You said the following:

You were quite clear that we has sacked for saying that he saw Piht on TV.

You're now backing off that claim to a rather vaguer and lesser claim that you still haven't provided evidence of.

Do you have evidence that Moik was fired by Estline because he said he saw Piht on TV?

The one thing that Vixen has been consistent with in these threads.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen, why won't you answer my question? It's a simple yes or no question.

Here, I'll even answer first. I do not consider myself competent to assess Bjorkman's claims with regards to the sinking of the Estonia outside of the most basic ones of fact. I do not possess the physics skills to assess his claims in depth.


Now you go.

Sorry, I am not into directing hate posts at people I do not even know. Bjorkman hasn't done anything to upset me.

 

[JesseCuster]

AIUI Moik was in trouble for putting Mörd in hot water, as it were, and for going on television without okaying it with his employers first. That is how it looked to me.

But that's not what you claimed, you said that Moik was sacked for saying that he saw Piht on TV

You didn't say that Moik was in trouble for putting Mord in hot water for going on television without okaying it with his employers.

Why do you keep changing what it is you're claiming about Moik and the trouble he got into and the reason he got into trouble? And why is it that you repeatedly refuse to provide evidence of Moik getting sacked and the reason for why he got sacked?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Whoa! This is a chat forum, not a peer-reviewed paper.

Sheee-eeesh!

That would be a no then.

 

[Vixen]

Note how he contradicts Moik himself when he claims that Moik saw the film. He also fails to mention that the person calling Piht's wife was Moik so it isn't an independent source.

Also, according to the text Piht was taken to Utö. Does this mean that you are now abandoning the secret Y-64 flight "theory"?

Finally, he says that Piht was seen also in Swedish TV. Did the German secret service steal those tapes, too?

I honestly wouldn't know. However, there seems to be a lot of evidence that Piht was a survivor.

 

[JayUtah]

Bjorkman hasn't done anything to upset me.

That's not the question. The question is the basis of your ability to judge for yourself whether Björkman's physics claims are true. Do you claim to be competent enough to make that judgment on your own? It's a simple yes-or-no question. It's not about "hate posts."

 

[Vixen]

But that's not what you claimed, you said that Moik was sacked for saying that he saw Piht on TV

You didn't say that Moik was in trouble for putting Mord in hot water for going on television without okaying it with his employers.

Why do you keep changing what it is you're claiming about Moik and the trouble he got into and the reason he got into trouble? And why is it that you repeatedly refuse to provide evidence of Moik getting sacked and the reason for why he got sacked?

You actually had a good catch with spotting what Moik actually seems to have said in that interview. It is a pity you spoilt it by pretending to throw an angry aggressive heebie-jeebie about it, when all you had to do was politely point it out.

 

[JesseCuster]

You actually had a good catch with spotting what Moik actually seems to have said in that interview. It is a pity you spoilt it by pretending to throw an angry aggressive heebie-jeebie about it, when all you had to do was politely point it out.

Whatever.

Do you have any evidence that Moik was sacked because of what he said about Piht being seen on TV by crewmembers?

(edit: I feel like Jeremy Paxman here!)

 

[Mojo]

As usual, it is necessary to remind Vixen what we are talking about:

What was your source for the claim that the Swedish government disappeared the two Egyptians, and that this was confirmed to have happened by court decisions (you initially specified the ECHR)?

Sven Anér and Drew Wilson.

Links please.

Drew Wilson see his book.

You can retrieve the letter from sok. riksarkivet.

Can you provide a page reference, and quote what it actually says?




Sorry, that link doesn’t seem to go to a letter, and I don’t know the language well enough to navigate the site. Can you link to the actual letter?

p. 194 - 194

Some controlled metals had nuclear weapons applications. As early as 1992, Ukrainian officials detained a plane believed bound for Estonia loaded with 3.2 tons of zirconium, a dual-use nuclear material and 800 kilograms of hafnium, used in nuclear control rods. Two planes from Kiev are believed to have smuggled more than six tons of these materials to Estonia.
The same year, Finnish and Russian customs in two separate incidents intercepted large Estonian shipments of zirconium.

and...

Border guards were in many cases unable to detect contraband or unauthorized to stop it. Estonia had no law on the books that required export licenses* for strategic goods such as nuclear, biological and chemical materials and technology until November 1994, two months after the ferry sank.

As 1994 approached, smuggled goods began to turn from drugs, guns and controlled metals to far more dangerous things. Esoteric sub stances few had ever heard of were turning up in connection with Estonia. Finnish police collared smugglers with radioactive californium-235. The material was routed from Russia through Estonia to Finland, with Germany the final destination.

Cont. smuggling of dangerous goods to the west:

Thefts of fissile materials from the state-owned Fosforit Combine in Kingisepp a Russian city 20 kilometers from the Estonian border, included several measuring devices containing radionuclides and cesium-137. Devices turned up in the Estonian towns of Sillamäe and Narva and five were found on a ship about to leave Tallinn.
Estonian police arrested two Swedish men for allegedly carrying a 25-kilogrami lead container of cesium-137 onto a ferry from Estonia to Sweden. It is unclear whether it was the Estonia ferry
Cesium-137 is a radioactive metal resulting from nuclear fission in weapon or reactor. It is used in various industrial measuring devices and in cancer treatment. As a radioactive substance, it is also a potential component of a dirty bomb when coupled with several pounds of TNT.
During 1994, several bars of cesium-137 with radioactivity up to lethal 200 roentgens per hour popped up in Estonia, Sweden and Finland. When police traced the cesium's origins, they often led to one point the Saku Repository near the city of Saku, outside Tallinn. Saku, previously a a radioactive waste facility, had one security guard watching 72 hectares and a broken alarm system. Saku was looted.
In one heist, an Estonian man carried a bar of cesium-137 in his coat pocket for a few days and died from the intensive radioactivity. The bar was traced back to Saku. 23
Illegal trafficking became so severe that about three weeks before the Estonia ferry sank, Estonia was forced to shut down a border crossing to Russia. Prime Minister Laar said the closing was important to help police cope with the underworld.

The Hole, Drew Wilson


*Notandum: Finland had brought in a new EU Law 1 Sept 1994 effective immediately and in full from 1 Jan 1995, as follows:

https://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajanta.../19940719#L9P2


Article 25 Entry into force provision This Law shall enter into force on 1 September 1994. However, Article 12(1) of the Act shall enter into force on 1 January 1995. This Law repeals the Law of 20 June 1974 on the transport of dangerous goods on the road (510/74), with subsequent amendments; however, the provisions on the transport of dangerous goods concerning a VAK licence issued pursuant to Articles 12 and 17 of that Law shall remain in force until 31 December 1994. <snip legalise> Article 26 Transitional provision VAK licences issued before the entry into force of Article 12(1) of this Act shall remain valid for the period specified therein, but not exceeding 31 December 1999. The driving licence may be renewed in accordance with the provisions adopted pursuant to this Act. HE 74/94 LIVM 6/94 Annex XIII to the EEA Agreement: Council Directive 89/684/EEC, Decision of the EEA Joint Committee of 21 March 1994 No 1605/94/EC of 21 March 1994 7/94., Annex XIII to the EEA Agreement: Council Directive 93/75/EEC

None of that has anything to do with what you had been asked. Does this mean that Sven Anér and Drew Wilson were not your source for this?

Once again: what was your source for the claim that the Swedish government disappeared the two Egyptians, and that this was confirmed to have happened by court decisions (you initially specified the ECHR)?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Note how he contradicts Moik himself when he claims that Moik saw the film. He also fails to mention that the person calling Piht's wife was Moik so it isn't an independent source.

Also, according to the text Piht was taken to Utö. Does this mean that you are now abandoning the secret Y-64 flight "theory"?

Finally, he says that Piht was seen also in Swedish TV. Did the German secret service steal those tapes, too?

There was a claim just a couple of days ago that he was taken to the German Embassy.

 

[Vixen]

As usual, it is necessary to remind Vixen what we are talking about:





None of that has anything to do with what you had been asked. Does this mean that Sven Anér and Drew Wilson were not your source for this?

Once again: what was your source for the claim that the Swedish government disappeared the two Egyptians, and that this was confirmed to have happened by court decisions (you initially specified the ECHR)?

So you weren't really interested in the topic of smuggling from Estonia to the West.


No good deed goes unpunished.

 

[Vixen]

There was a claim just a couple of days ago that he was taken to the German Embassy.

That is what some sources were saying.

 

[JayUtah]

So you weren't really interested in the topic of smuggling from Estonia to the West.


No good deed goes unpunished.

What does this have to do with anything? You have been asked countless times by many people what your source is for the claim that Sweden "disappeared" two Egyptian refugees. If not Bollyn, who is your source?

Mojo's unraveling and laying bare your lengthy pattern of evasion doesn't somehow put you onto the high moral ground. No, we weren't interested in evidence of smuggling when we asked about the Egyptians.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Sorry, I am not into directing hate posts at people I do not even know. Bjorkman hasn't done anything to upset me.

What are you talking about? I'm not asking you to say anything about Bjorkman. Are you having a break from reality or something?

I'm asking you if you claim to be capable of assessing his claims?

 

[Andy_Ross]

That is what some sources were saying.

Which sources?

He gets around this bloke doesn't he?

 

[JesseCuster]

So you weren't really interested in the topic of smuggling from Estonia to the West.


No good deed goes unpunished.

You were asked about about the two Egyptians being supposedly disappeared by Sweden.

You have a bizarre habit of doing this, responding to a question and then posting about something entirely different.

Why did you respond with a bunch of stuff about smuggling nuclear material when you were asked a question about the two Egyptians you claimed were disappeared by Sweden?

 

[Mojo]

So you weren't really interested in the topic of smuggling from Estonia to the West.


No good deed goes unpunished.

I was asking about your source for the alleged enforced disappearance of the Egyptians. You claimed it was Sven Anér and Drew Wilson, but when asked to quote what they said about it posted something completely irrelevant to the question.

Whether or not I’m interested in smuggling is not relevant here. The issue is your inability to source the claim about the Egyptians to anyone but Bollyn.

I’ll ask again: what was your source for the claim that the Swedish government disappeared the two Egyptians, and that this was confirmed to have happened by court decisions, including one from the ECHR.


ETA: since we’re on a new page, I suppose I’d better remind Vixen how we got here again:

What was your source for the claim that the Swedish government disappeared the two Egyptians, and that this was confirmed to have happened by court decisions (you initially specified the ECHR)?

Sven Anér and Drew Wilson.

Links please.

Drew Wilson see his book.

You can retrieve the letter from sok. riksarkivet.

Can you provide a page reference, and quote what it actually says?




Sorry, that link doesn’t seem to go to a letter, and I don’t know the language well enough to navigate the site. Can you link to the actual letter?

p. 194 - 194

[Irrelevant stuff about smuggling snipped]

and...

[snipped as irrelevant]

Cont. smuggling of dangerous goods to the west:

[More irrelevance snipped]

The Hole, Drew Wilson


*Notandum: Finland had brought in a new EU Law 1 Sept 1994 effective immediately and in full from 1 Jan 1995, as follows:

[Irrelevant legislation snipped]

 

[Reformed Offlian]

So you weren't really interested in the topic of smuggling from Estonia to the West.


No good deed goes unpunished.

Wasting another poster's time with a bunch of irrelevant stuff that doesn't answer his question is not a "good deed". Nor is pointing out said irrelevance a punishment.

Who, independently from Bollyn, says that the Egyptians were forceably disappeared, in violation of the Rome Statute on enforced disappearance?