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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

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The power did not cut off until it was listed at a certain angle. Wouldn't you say that if these three guys in the engine room were 'up to their knees in water', there was something badly wrong?

Yet they do not mention this at all in the JAIC Report. I would have thought it was an important observation to note.

The JAIC report was in to the sinking. Do you think they weren't aware that it was flooding?


The bloody ship was sinking, taking in large Volumes of water, it was taking on a list to starboard that couldn't be corrected as the ballast tanks were already full in an attempt to correct bad cargo loading, of course there was something badly wrong.
 
No, I deleted it straight away, yet you saw fit to retrieve it and quote it. Why did you do that?

So you did so because you wanted to retrieve an error in order to call me out and shout to everybody - Look she made an error and tried to edit it, but I've captured it!

You only deleted it after it was pointed out that there is no evidence for the claim at all.
 
Here is the Nucleonics Week article. Be sure to read the correction published 1 week later. Make of it what you will.

Thanks very much for that.

The amount of Californium actually involved appears to be several orders of magnitude less than, for example, the specks of Americium in the couple of domestic smoke detectors in my home. In the context of this thread it also very helpfully illustrates the point that initial reports can be very significantly mistaken.

I do still wonder about Vixen's source* though; it's a safe bet it wasn't from the horse's mouth so to speak.

*Pun? What pun?
 
No, I deleted it straight away, yet you saw fit to retrieve it and quote it. Why did you do that?

So you did so because you wanted to retrieve an error in order to call me out and shout to everybody - Look she made an error and tried to edit it, but I've captured it!

That isn't possible. He must have quoted it before your edit.
 
Here's the thing. Just because more than one person has a similar view about the cause of a disaster, be it Estonia or 9/11, it doesn't make them a granfalloon.

Straw man. Again, the argument is not that you share all your authorities' views. The argument is that you clearly have to share some of them -- contrary to your protest -- otherwise your citation of them has no force in your argument. You propose to deftly sever the parts you need from the parts on which they are clearly in error, and declare those needed parts to be sound. Except in the cases of Bollyn and Björkman they are not severable.

Bjorkman's physical assessment of the seaworthiness of Estonia and the mechanics and physics of how she could sink are perfectly sound.

They are not. And you frankly have no way of knowing that for yourself. You simply believe him when he says he is a highly experienced marine engineer, and therefore insist to us that his declarations must have merit. You believe him because he's telling you want you want to hear and making you think there is a sound scientific basis for it, not because you can know for yourself whether he's right.

It doesn't mean I share his views on Hiroshima or 9/11 because I obviously do not.

That's not the argument. You're asking us to accept his MS Estonia conclusions on the strength of his purported credentials and expertise. Except we know from our own experience that his credentials are overstated. We know that his expertise is worthless because he spews nonsense on the subjects his expertise is supposed to be about. You accept that he's a crackpot on all the other subjects that specifically require engineering and scientific expertise, but somehow on the one subject of MS Estonia he's a perfectly reliable scientific source.

No. That's not how expertise works.

I knew nothing about Bollyn, except that he quoted Aner, whose investigative journalism into the Estonia, I was already aware of and familiar with. There was nothing in his article that mentioned his radical right views on other topics.

And you still seem to think it's not your duty to ensure that your authorities really are trustworthy by looking into their credentials, experience, and other work. Again, on the subject of "disappearing" the Egyptians, your source is simply false on its face. The facts have been examined, and they do not support the accusation that Sweden violated the Rome Statute as it applies to forced disappearance. We could reject Bollyn's authority on that basis alone.

But you want us to accept the claim anyway on the strength of the authority. Well then that requires us to examine the strength of the authority, and we find that Bollyn is not a strong authority. He is not a trustworthy reporter of fact, therefore the proper conclusion is that the independent facts are correct and that Bollyn is misrepresenting them.
 
Even if the proper name is Hämeen Härkätie, it should still have shown as a separate word in its own right.

No, the proper name was Hämeentie. Every contemporary text that I've been able to find it uses that name. I have linked quite a few newspapers that use that name to you already.

And I agree, if someone used Härkätie in a Turun Sanomat article I should have found it with my search. But I didn't. There are two possibilities why that happened: either OCR has messed up the news article so badly that the fuzzy search that digi.kansalliskirjasto didn't find it, or the article doesn't exist.

I tried to control the first possibility by searching also for 'maantie', 'murha', 'ruumis', and 'tapettu' and those didn't bring up matches that would have had 'Härkätie' nearby.

So now it is called kymppitie (= 'Road 10'), but that is only since the fifties, when it became a motorway.

And the road was called Hämeentie by 1850s the latest because printed Finnish sources of that decade use the name. It is quite likely that it had been Hämeentie for a long long time before that, because all official written sources use the Swedish form of that name throughout the whole recorded history.

Digital newspaper libraries are quite limited. I'll see if I can find the article I took a photocopy of from the hard original copy at British Newspaper Library, when I have time.

The digi.kansalliskirjasto contains all issues.

By the way, I believe that the article that you photocopied was the one that you mentioned earlier on this thread. Because that one was from Turun Sanomat and it contains mentions of people being murdered on roads. It doesn't say anything about Härkätie though, and I believe that you remember the article incorrectly.


Either way, your trying to claim it is impossible is simply either misguided or you are not being straight.

Read what I write, not what you think I write.

I have said that it possible that the article exists. Not that it is impossible. I do think that the better explanation is that you remember wrong, though.
 
... One thing that is certain is that no German news station had time to send their own camera crew to Finland in time to get a news report out the afternoon same day. The German news station has shown footage captured by someone else and presumably other news stations over the world showed the same film.

Yes, that's a very good point.

I went to youtube to see if there's something there. There was the 20:30 main news report by YLE. It's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Y6MvW9nnU .

Starting at about 1:15 on that video there's a scene where two men who have blankets over their shoulders walk from ambulance to a hospital. I believe this is the footage that the Estonian sailors saw in Rostock and they mistook the first man as Avo Piht.

Plus there are two more people with the same grey blankets at the start of that shot (who appear to have walked past the far side of that ambulance rather than climbed out of it) and all four go into the hospital. The next shot appears to show the same four men, filmed through the window (one being offered a clipboard and another given a pen).
 
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Unless you are disputing laws formulated by the likes of Archimedes or Newton, there are some things that are given demonstrable facts.

No, you can't just wave your hands vaguely at Archimedes and Newton and say that on that basis Anders Björkman's claims must be correct and that you know they are correct.

You tried to demonstrate your own knowledge of ship stability, using a video you found on YouTube, and you failed badly. You couldn't even restate the principles taught in the video in your own words without making an amusing hash of it. You couldn't answer any questions that would have required you to extend your understanding of the material to new situations. You were a poor student.

No, Björkman's claims don't follow inexorably from the great physicists of the past, and you are not competent either in their work or his. No, Björkman's claims are not self-evidently true.
 
Thanks very much for that.

The amount of Californium actually involved appears to be several orders of magnitude less than, for example, the specks of Americium in the couple of domestic smoke detectors in my home. In the context of this thread it also very helpfully illustrates the point that initial reports can be very significantly mistaken.

I do still wonder about Vixen's source* though; it's a safe bet it wasn't from the horse's mouth so to speak.

*Pun? What pun?

Though, searching for that story I found a few quite scary nuclear reports coming from Estonia in the 90s.

For example, https://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/art-2000003309007.html tells how a routine inspection in an Estonian scrapyard found a briefcase-sized piece of metal that radiated 2 sV/h.

No one knew where the piece originated, but the conclusion was that it had to have been a part of a nuclear reactor coolant system.
 
It is not reasonable to expect me to remember when and where I first heard, saw or read of when such-and-such point was made.

Then it's not reasonable to expect you to remember the point accurately.

I can tell you, that Aner, was the investigative journalist who came up with the revelation that the two US cargo aircraft had been waiting at Arlanda ATT and left with nine unnamed passengers shortly after, the bill paid for by the US Embassy in Stockholm. His source provided the receipts.

This is not what is in dispute. We know the Egyptians were flown from Sweden to Egypt on an airplane that was later linked with other activities attributable to the CIA. There are proceedings in the ECHR that enter the relevant facts into the record. We don't need to look to journalists to substantiate that.

The question is not how the Egyptians were transported, or on what aircraft, but whether Sweden's treatment of them amounted to "enforced disappearance" under the Rome Statute or any other relevant law. If Anér is your new source for that claim then you're on the hook to provide a verifiable citation to it.
 
No, I deleted it straight away, yet you saw fit to retrieve it and quote it. Why did you do that?

So you did so because you wanted to retrieve an error in order to call me out and shout to everybody - Look she made an error and tried to edit it, but I've captured it!

You made the post at 11.00pm*, and edited it at 11.13pm* (after posting twice more in the thread). That's not 'straight away'

It is, however, after Captain Swoop quoted you, and asked what evidence you had.



*UK time.
 
We can know it wasn't because Anér wrote in Swedish.

Agreed. Certain English colloquialisms such as a person being "disappeared" or "suicided" -- verbs contrived from past participles -- cannot be expected to have direct analogues in other languages. To attribute the idea to Anér would require access to his original Swedish writing and and services of a competent translator to verify that the English rendition is suitably equivalent.
 
Agreed. Certain English colloquialisms such as a person being "disappeared" or "suicided" -- verbs contrived from past participles -- cannot be expected to have direct analogues in other languages. To attribute the idea to Anér would require access to his original Swedish writing and and services of a competent translator to verify that the English rendition is suitably equivalent.


Oh, there probably is an equivalent in Swedish, but Vixen already said that she can't read Swedish.
 
Though, searching for that story I found a few quite scary nuclear reports coming from Estonia in the 90s.

For example, https://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/art-2000003309007.html tells how a routine inspection in an Estonian scrapyard found a briefcase-sized piece of metal that radiated 2 sV/h.

No one knew where the piece originated, but the conclusion was that it had to have been a part of a nuclear reactor coolant system.

Fair enough, though horror stories of highly radioactive materials finding their way into scrapyards isn't particular to the Baltic states.

I had a delve into this wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_civilian_radiation_accidents but found that just reading a few stories is about as much of a dose as I could handle.

(Note to self: when you don't know what the stuff is but it sure does have a pretty blue glow, run and you might still have a chance.)
 
It did not claim otherwise, either.

Let me remind you of what you claimed:

Finnish hospitals, as reported by the Hesari, treated in all 140 survivors,

HS didn't report that the hospitals treated 140 survivors.

This is the reason why no one believes you when you claim that some source reports something.

You read what a text reads. You assume what the true meaning of the text is, and then you claim that the text tells what you assume really happened.

If you look at the official tables on the Swedish Riksdag site you can see there are a total of 149 (104 Finland, 45 Sweden) which it explains away as people transferred from Finland to Sweden, yet such a patient would not be double counted as a survivor.

It's a list showing how many people each hospital treated. So when a person is moved from a hospital to another, they are treated by both. No conflict there.

If I were you I would be more interested in why the country distribution table shows 138 survivors while the other tables show 137. There's a conflict. And no, I don't have any idea why that's there, someone has made a mistake somewhere.
 
How many of Linde's utterings did you hear?

The point, which I regret the need to belabour, is that you are giving us your editorialised version of a story you gleaned from some already-editorialised third-hand source which has put its own spin on the tale, and now absurdly suggest we ought to accept it as accurate and truthful as if we had heard it first-hand.

You can read Linde's own words for yourself in this pdf. See page 27 onwards.

https://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/pdf/Enclosure16.pdf
 
How is it 'verified'?

A Reuters registered reporter interviewed someone in authority who spoke in an official capacity.

As well as Bengt Stenmark's quote speaking on behalf of Swedish Maritime Safety.

Turku's maritime director Erik Mörd said that Avo Piht had been transported by car to Helsinki, 28 Sept 1994.

Then Danish and Swedish papers reported he had gone missing from Helsinki Hospital.

So all of these reporters and informants are disreputable...?
 
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