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Trans women are not women (Part 8)

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Meadmaker said:
As for testosterone, I thought that the message of the new framework was that testosterone levels alone were inadequate to ensure fairness, both because some cis-women have abnormally high testosterone levels, and because lowering testosterone levels does not completely eliminate the male advantage.
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To reiterate an oft-ignored piece of information: The highest levels of "abnormally high" testosterone in females is about one quarter of the lowest level of "abnormally low" testosterone found in males.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
No, the bigoted position is to see a trans woman/girl and assume they're really a crytpo male who's primary motivation is to be a sexual predator, which is obviously what is happening in the vast majority of these bathroom freakouts. These people are so bigoted that they are inventing trans people out of thin air to fit the bill of sexual predator, as this case has demonstrated.
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WTAF? Invented out of thin air?

Let's see... actual for-real sexual predator who routinely shows up for school dressed in traditionally female attire...

Oh yes, I see how it was totally completely invented and has no basis in any kind of reality at all!
 
JoeMorgue said:
Can we agree on a burden of proof needed to declare another demographic "a danger" because we're all over the place here.
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Are you questioning that males are a danger to females? If not, the burden of proof is on those claiming that TW are unlike other males in that regard (i.e. the null hypothesis is that they are the same). The limited data from the UK suggests that TW are the same in terms of risk to females as other males (and as I recall a disproportionally high number of the TW in prison there are in for sexual offenses.

One disturbing trend by TRA's is the call for crimes/violence committed by TW to be attributed to women and thus rendering those kinds of figures impossible to compute.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
I'll add on to your list:

A friend of mine lives with Schizophrenia. Valid or not?

Many of my friends and relatives live with Alzheimer's and/or dementia. Valid or not?

I and several of my friends and relatives live with having a female body. Valid or not?
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Emperor Norton had a valid lived condition.

Munchausen's by Proxy is a valid lived condition.

Sexual sadism is a valid lived condition.

Bulimia is a valid lived condition.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a valid lived condition.
 
theprestige said:
Emperor Norton had a valid lived condition.

Munchausen's by Proxy is a valid lived condition.

Sexual sadism is a valid lived condition.

Bulimia is a valid lived condition.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a valid lived condition.
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But adult, human, female is a BS mantra.
 
In all seriousness, I think I understand what LondonJohn means by "valid lived condition", and while I find the terminology a bit silly, I'm pretty sure that all the "regulars" in this conversation would agree that it is, indeed, a valid lived condition.

Which makes me wonder what's the point, and who does he think he's arguing with? I think he's arguing against the "relevant context", rather than anyone here.
 
Meadmaker said:
In all seriousness, I think I understand what LondonJohn means by "valid lived condition", and while I find the terminology a bit silly, I'm pretty sure that all the "regulars" in this conversation would agree that it is, indeed, a valid lived condition.

Which makes me wonder what's the point, and who does he think he's arguing with? I think he's arguing against the "relevant context", rather than anyone here.
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I think that phrase (valid lived condition) needs fleshing out to decide whether people agree. I volunteered for 2 years on a suicide prevention hotline*, and we were taught that to befriend/empathize with callers, that all feelings were valid (i.e. regardless of how distasteful/irrational we might find the sentiments).

So yes, I can agree that being a male but being strongly attracted to stereotypes associated with females is valid. Saying that being a woman is defined by those feelings/stereotypes and/or that these feelings make you female is not.

It seems as though using the phrase 'valid lived condition' is supposed to confer a reality on these particular feelings that other feelings lack.


* We got a fair number of LGB callers, but no one that I talked to said they were trans. However, there were regular callers that were transvestites/AGP and would only talk to females (I once got > 40 hang-ups in a 4 hour shift) and their calls were invariably sexual in nature.
 
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Louden Wilde said:
* We got a fair number of LGB callers, but no one that I talked to said they were trans. However, there were regular callers that were transvestites/AGP and would only talk to females (I once got > 40 hang-ups in a 4 hour shift) and their calls were invariably sexual in nature.
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I wonder if LJ would consider autogynephilia a valid lived condition.


ETA: And, for what it's worth, I'm not sure what I myself would say about it. I think I would say that it is. That's based on the idea that it may very well have a biological basis, and it probably cannot be cured/altered/removed (what's the acceptable word for that?) through psychotherapy. On the other hand, it really demonstrates why being a valid lived condition doesn't really give much guidance toward public policy. I'm quite certain that the average woman wouldn't be too keen on sharing a locker room with someone whose only abnormality is AGP.
 
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Meadmaker said:
In all seriousness, I think I understand what LondonJohn means by "valid lived condition", and while I find the terminology a bit silly, I'm pretty sure that all the "regulars" in this conversation would agree that it is, indeed, a valid lived condition.

Which makes me wonder what's the point, and who does he think he's arguing with? I think he's arguing against the "relevant context", rather than anyone here.
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In all seriousness, I think I know what I mean by "valid lived condition", but not what LJ means.

As far as I can tell, LJ means:

- It's a condition for which science prescribes specific treatments, accommodations, and entitlements in public policy; but he won't cite the relevant science, using this catchphrase as an effectively meaningless proxy.

- It's a privileged self-perception, and as such cannot be legitimately questioned or deprecated, similar to one's sexual attraction.

- It's a privileged self-perception, and as such entitles people having the condition to transcend sex segregation, notably including sexual attraction in relevant heterosexual and homosexual populations. (I forget if LJ has come out for transcending sex segregation in sports as well as in the bedroom.)
 
theprestige said:
(I forget if LJ has come out for transcending sex segregation in sports as well as in the bedroom.)
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Yes, but he makes an exception for "elite level" sports. i.e. He has expressed in the past that some level of segregation by sex is acceptable in "elite level" sports, but not in school based or comparable competitions.


At least, that is what I understood from his previous entries.
 
Meadmaker said:
I wonder if LJ would consider autogynephilia a valid lived condition.
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Emily's Cat said:
I don't know if he'd say it's a "valid lived condition" or not... but it *is* a legitimate psychological disorder. It is a sexual paraphilia classed under transvestic disorder.
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Unfortunately, if by "valid lived condition", LJ means that transgender self-ID is a privileged self-perception, and as such cannot be legitimately questioned or deprecated, similar to one's sexual attraction...

... Then it becomes socially (and probably legally) impossible to ask whether the claimant actually suffers from autogynephilia, and requires a different set of scientifically-established treatments/accommodations/entitlements.

It also becomes politically difficult to get the kind of research data that ST is stuck on. Questioning a self-diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and suggesting an alternative diagnosis with a different course of treatment, will be similarly untenable.
 
(Honestly I think "valid lived condition" is mostly supposed to put gender dysphoria on the same footing as sexual attraction. It's essentially an appeal to analogy.)
 
Anecdote:

https://nypost.com/2022/01/17/la-da-ripped-after-child-molester-faces-little-or-no-time/


Short version for those not wanting to click:
Two weeks before "her" 18th birthday in 2014, transgender woman sexually assaults 10 year old girl in bathroom at Denny's. He is caught groping the girl. He runs away. Was recently turned up in a DNA check related to arrests for other subsequent crimes, and prosecuted, but a light sentence was recommended. The story made headlines recently because the sentencing hearing happened recently. Sorry for confusion with pronouns, but I'm not sure when things happened. The person was named James at birth, but subsequently changed her name to Hannah. It is unclear from the story what her legal name or her gender presentation was at the time of the 2014 sexual assault. Looks male to me in surveillance image from 2014, but the attack occurred in the girls' bathroom.
 
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Meadmaker said:
Anecdote:

https://nypost.com/2022/01/17/la-da-ripped-after-child-molester-faces-little-or-no-time/


Short version for those not wanting to click:
Two weeks before "her" 18th birthday in 2014, transgender woman sexually assaults 10 year old girl in bathroom at Denny's. He is caught groping the girl. He runs away. Was recently turned up in a DNA check related to arrests for other subsequent crimes, and prosecuted, but a light sentence was recommended. Sorry for confusion with pronouns, but I'm not sure when things happened. The person was named James at birth, but subsequently changed her name to Hannah. It is unclear from the story what her legal name or her gender presentation was at the time of the 2014 sexual assault. Looks male to me in surveillance image from 2014, but the attack occurred in the girls' bathroom.
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What are we supposed to glean from this?
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
What are we supposed to glean from this?
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Whatever you usually glean from such anecdotes. It seems to me the thing that is gleaned is often in the eye of the beholder.


However, one thing that I'm sure some readers have gleaned is that in a very short time, Hannah will be coming to a woman's bathroom near you. That will probably make the bigots kind of nervous.
 
Meadmaker said:
Whatever you usually glean from such anecdotes. It seems to me the thing that is gleaned is often in the eye of the beholder.


However, one thing that I'm sure some readers have gleaned is that in a very short time, Hannah will be coming to a woman's bathroom near you. That will probably make the bigots kind of nervous.
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Some trans people are criminals. This one has been wanted for a crime for several years. She's accomplished quite the record in a short time and doesn't really seem to mind getting caught breaking the law. I'm not sure I follow your point.

The article complains about leniency due to the local DA's stance on not prosecuting juveniles as adults, which may be an interesting topic but is not really relevant here. I'm not really seeing the anti-trans angle here, other than a trans person was the perp.
 
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theprestige said:
(Honestly I think "valid lived condition" is mostly supposed to put gender dysphoria on the same footing as sexual attraction. It's essentially an appeal to analogy.)
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I don't even think it's that well thought out. I think it's nothing more than wrapping magical terminology around something mundane, to give it a veneer of sacredness that makes it above question.

It's a religious catechism.
 
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