Cont: The behaviour of US police officers - part 2

[shemp]

From what I understand of their training, if something happens that makes them afraid aren't they supposed to shoot him?

Dave

I suppose if they shot him enough times, the blood might put out the flames.

Another question: No fire sprinklers in the room? If they were there they didn't go off.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I suppose if they shot him enough times, the blood might put out the flames.

Another question: No fire sprinklers in the room? If they were there they didn't go off.

You generally need a decent, ongoing fire to set off a sprinkler system. The incident being discussed, while tragic, probably didn't generate enough heat to melt the plugs for a sprinkler.

And I'm not even sure if a police station requires sprinklers. I have zero idea what the standards are for sprinklers.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Maybe I am biased, I was trained in techniques for dealing with it.

I never had to do it myself, but I was on a ship with a man that did. He got burned putting out the flames on a burning shipmate. He got a medal for it.

 

[JoeMorgue]

You don't have to be formally trained to at least act like another human burning to death in front of you is something you should at least be concerned with or care about.

This was, by some reasonable definitions of the term, a freak accident. I'm not necessarily faulting the police for not having a step by step SOP ready to pull of the wall chart for how to deal with this. I'm faulting for not doing anything.

The one thing where I have, sorta, maintained a pro-LEO narrative is in the mythology a lot of people have around the concept of "restraint." This is not the movies with magical pressure points that subdue people, punches that knock them out for exactly 5 minutes and they then wake up with zero ill effects, Tasers that work like Star Trek Phasers set to stun, and all that crap.

Restraining someone who doesn't want to be restrained is hard and can never be made risk free. Hell, and I speak from experience, just restraining and moving a totally passive prisoner is hard enough and dealing with one fighting back is a goddamn nightmare. This is one area where I'm extremely open to invoking the ancient, hallowed tradition of "**** Happens."

But responsibility is more than just having a set of responses available for every possible scenario that you've memorized.

If the dude had caught fire from the Taser and the police had at least tried something and he died... okay maybe (depending on circumstances and details and all that) we would be, or at least should be, having a radically different discussion.

 

[ponderingturtle]

You don't have to be formally trained to at least act like another human burning to death in front of you is something you should at least be concerned with or care about.

This was, by some reasonable definitions of the term, a freak accident. I'm not necessarily faulting the police for not having a step by step SOP ready to pull of the wall chart for how to deal with this. I'm faulting for not doing anything.

The one thing where I have, sorta, maintained a pro-LEO narrative is in the mythology a lot of people have around the concept of "restraint." This is not the movies with magical pressure points that subdue people, punches that knock them out for exactly 5 minutes and they then wake up with zero ill effects, Tasers that work like Star Trek Phasers set to stun, and all that crap.

Restraining someone who doesn't want to be restrained is hard and can never be made risk free. Hell, and I speak from experience, just restraining and moving a totally passive prisoner is hard enough and dealing with one fighting back is a goddamn nightmare. This is one area where I'm extremely open to invoking the ancient, hallowed tradition of "**** Happens."

But responsibility is more than just having a set of responses available for every possible scenario that you've memorized.

If the dude had caught fire from the Taser and the police had at least tried something and he died... okay maybe (depending on circumstances and details and all that) we would be, or at least should be, having a radically different discussion.

But of course setting people on fire is a known risk of taser use, but you can't expect the police to actually try to use their less lethal weapons as actually directed, when there are more fun options like shooting reporters with rubber bullets in the head for giggles.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

You don't have to be formally trained to at least act like another human burning to death in front of you is something you should at least be concerned with or care about.

This was, by some reasonable definitions of the term, a freak accident. I'm not necessarily faulting the police for not having a step by step SOP ready to pull of the wall chart for how to deal with this. I'm faulting for not doing anything.

The one thing where I have, sorta, maintained a pro-LEO narrative is in the mythology a lot of people have around the concept of "restraint." This is not the movies with magical pressure points that subdue people, punches that knock them out for exactly 5 minutes and they then wake up with zero ill effects, Tasers that work like Star Trek Phasers set to stun, and all that crap.

Restraining someone who doesn't want to be restrained is hard and can never be made risk free. Hell, and I speak from experience, just restraining and moving a totally passive prisoner is hard enough and dealing with one fighting back is a goddamn nightmare. This is one area where I'm extremely open to invoking the ancient, hallowed tradition of "**** Happens."

But responsibility is more than just having a set of responses available for every possible scenario that you've memorized.

If the dude had caught fire from the Taser and the police had at least tried something and he died... okay maybe (depending on circumstances and details and all that) we would be, or at least should be, having a radically different discussion.

It's helpful to look at this in a broader context where police routinely exasperate the consequences of their violence by refusing to provide timely first aid to the people they harm. Often this is in the context of not rendering timely aid to people they shoot, but I see this as a similar type of incident.

It's not surprising that officers don't respond well to setting a man afire through a freakish accident when they routinely choose not to provide aid to people they intentionally severely injure. Cops are routinely indifferent to the wellbeing to members of the public, especially towards those that they intentionally (rightly or wrongly) cause harm.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I suppose if they shot him enough times, the blood might put out the flames.

Another question: No fire sprinklers in the room? If they were there they didn't go off.

That wasn't enough smoke or heat to trigger sprinklers if they were there.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Maybe I am biased, I was trained in techniques for dealing with it.

I never had to do it myself, but I was on a ship with a man that did. He got burned putting out the flames on a burning shipmate. He got a medal for it.

I was trained as well. All hospital employees are trained what to do and how to evacuate patients.

I was a house (turned into a rooming house) manager in the late 70s. Cops brought one of the tenants back, stoned out of his gourd and dumped him in his room, then they left. They should have taken him to the hospital he was that bad.

A few hours later one of the other tenants pounded on my door, smoke was pouring out of his room. I grabbed the keys (I was still thinking then), ran downstairs and unlocked the door. I called for him to come out. We could hear him moaning. The door felt hot (d'uh) but all that training said don't open the door. Yeah well that doesn't help when you can hear the guy moaning inside.

Still thinking I opened the door, petrified flames would explode out but they didn't. He was on his knees on the floor. Still thinking, I pulled him out and shut the door. The other tenant had gone to call the fire department and came back with the fire extinguisher.

That's when my brain quit being rational. I sprayed the fire extinguisher toward the closed door. I don't know why. The fire department arrived and started attending to the guy on the floor. I was annoyed they weren't addressing the fire. I imagined the whole building burning down. I pulled the guy down the hallway away from the room. The fire fighters all stared at me.

My brain then went back to normal.

The smoke alarms didn't go off until I opened the door. In the time it took to open it, pull the guy out and shut the door, the entire hallway filled with thick smoke from the first floor to the attic. You could see in the basement hallway, but you couldn't see so much as your hand in front of your face from the stairs to the attic. The people who had that room/apartment crawled out the window and down the fire escape.

It turned out the bed and floor below it were all that burned. But it had been so hot the TV melted. The guy had a couple bottles of phenobarbital (now empty) under different names. I wrote a letter to the editor of the main paper about the incompetence of the police tossing him in his room instead of taking him to the hospital but they never published it.

 

[pgwenthold]

OK, so I completely understand that police do not have an obligation to help someone in need. I don't agree with it, but I understand that it has been established.

But this takes it to the next level. They don't have an obligation to help someone in need, but they also don't have an an obligation to help someone they themselves unintentionally set on fire?

 

[lomiller]

As for not helping the man, the initial reaction for the cops was obviously to get away from the flames.

If someone's initial reaction to a person burning to death is to get away from the flames, that person has no business being a police officer. The fact that so many ran away backs up the idea that most current police officers are not fit for the job. This may be due to individual incompetence, an amoral nature or piss poor training but the fact remains that they shouldn't be cops.

 

[pgwenthold]

If someone's initial reaction to a person burning to death is to get away from the flames, that person has no business being a police officer. .

It wasn't just a guy burning to death, it was a guy they accidentally set on fire.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

When I teach bloodborne pathogens classes to police I address CPR without a barrier. Based on experience from what they've told me in past classes that they just don't do it, I remind them that yes they will when it is a child or some other person they are more empathetic toward than their usual suspects.

This could apply here as well. They need training with the caveat, saying I'll just back away simply doesn't cut it in all situations. What would they have done if that was a coworker on fire?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Police jail man for DUI that was not substantiated by evidence, refuse to allow him to take his prescribed medications for his well managed schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, then beat, tazer, and restrain him to death when his behavior becomes erratic.

A man who suffered from schizophrenia, bipolar, & ADHD died in jail after he was booked & held overnight for a DUI.

The problem: He wasn't driving drunk—& a blood sample said as much. He tested positive for amphetamines...which he took for ADHD.

...


He couldn't take his 6 prescriptions for his mental health issues & he eventually started acting out.

After a scuffle with officers, he was Tased, cuffed, put in a restraint chair, shackled w leg irons, put in a head restraint, & Tased again. He stopped breathing soon after.

...

No qualified immunity for the officers who Tased him & put him in a head restraint after he'd stopped resisting. QI for the rest.

I repeat: Held on suspicion of a DUI when the only thing he was under the influence of was his prescription medication. And now he's dead. Sigh

https://twitter.com/billybinion/status/1481017008669945856

It must be a nightmare to have any serious mental health issue in this country. Cops will create situations that are impossible to successfully navigate where being murdered is a possible outcome.

 

[shemp]

Off-duty Chicago police officer shoots three people during argument at Blue Island bowling alley

An off-duty Chicago police officer was arrested after allegedly shooting three people Tuesday night during an argument at a bowling alley in south suburban Blue Island.

The probationary police officer fired his gun shortly before midnight at the Burr Oak Bowl at 3030 W. 127th St., according to Civilian Office of Police Accountability spokesman Ephraim Eaddy.

Two gunshot victims were taken to Christ Medical Center in Oak Lawn, where one person remained Wednesday with a gunshot wound to the chest, Blue Island Police Chief Geoffery Farr said in a statement.

Another person drove himself to a hospital for a graze wound and was discharged, he said.

The officer was arrested by Blue Island police and relieved of his police powers, the Chicago Police Department said in a statement.

COPA said it was investigating the shooting with the Blue Island Police Department.

A law enforcement source said the officer was previously involved in an incident during a graduation party with his police academy classmates. He got into an altercation with a patron at a restaurant, informed that person he was a cop and then made an officer in distress call over police radio.

Sounds like this guy was a moron who liked to use his status as a cop to push people around. Exactly the kind of guy who shouldn't be a cop. At least he got himself removed while still probationary, before he killed someone. Idiot.

 

[mgidm86]

Get the man flat on the floor and smother the flames by rolling him or with a jacket, shirt, anything. Maybe you do get some burns.

Haven't they had any training in that sort of thing?

I don't know if they have. "Maybe you do get some burns"...okay great. Alcohol fire is no big deal I guess.

You mean the thick floor mat the guy was standing on top of while on fire, and that had a bit of flame on it? The mat he possibly squirted sanitizer on? You can clearly see him shooting the stuff over his shoulder, where it landed I can't tell. The mat is on fire at one point so some of it probably landed there, or the sanitizer dripped or rubbed off him onto the floor, just as it could have done to one of the cops who may have tried to help.

Alcohol flames are not fun to mess with, as they are often invisible. You could get severely burned by them.

We don't know if the guys looked for a blanket or extinguisher before returning to the room. Not saying they left the room to do so, they left to get the hell away from the fire, then came back. Take off your shirt? Okay maybe.

Not a hill I'm gonna die on, but I just think maybe people see too many movies and expect people to react correctly in an instant. Hindsight and all that.

I don't think they deliberately left him to burn out of malice. Scared? Maybe. Poorly trained, sure.

We don't even know for certain what killed him a month and a half later, so I'm sorry for wanting more info.

I question this one because this is very far down the list of bad things cops have done in this thread, and I don't see any obvious malice from them. Incompetence sure.

I'm outvoted so okay. Next story.

 

[erlando]

Not a hill I'm gonna die on, but I just think maybe people see too many movies and expect people to react correctly in an instant. Hindsight and all that.

I think people expect trained individuals to react correctly when faced with a situation. After all that's what training is supposed to be good for.

Have they been trained in this exact situation? Probably not but you would think they would have had some basic training about what to do in case of a fire.

Also it speaks to not just apparently bad training but a general mindset. They are not there to protect and serve anyone but themselves.

 

[Checkmite]

A police substation in Los Angeles was out of operation earlier this week, and a notice posted on the inside of the door falsely claimed the closure was a consequence of "defunding".

In reality, in Los Angeles "defund the police" was never more than a slogan chanted by protesters a few times. The city's police department budget has in fact only increased since 2020, and a further increase of 12% is slated for a city council vote by this summer.

The proclamation by LAPD middle-management that "defunding" was responsible for the closure is the result of another "Big Lie"-type right-wing propaganda campaign that alleges widespread defunding of police departments across the country has led to reductions in police effectiveness and rising crime rates. The truth is that only a handful of municipalities actually reduced their budgets in response to Black Lives Matter protests. Most places which put the question on the agenda or on a ballot ended up not reducing their police budgets.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

More arrests in the sprawling Honolulu police corruption case.

The chief players in this scheme have already been arrested and convicted. For background:

Ex-Hawaii prosecutor, police chief get prison for corruption
A former Honolulu prosecutor has been sentenced to 13 years in prison after a judge says she used her husband’s position as a police chief to frame a relative for a crime he didn’t commit in a corruption case that has staggered Hawaii

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/disgraced-couple-sentenced-hawaii-corruption-case-74463708

3 more arrests yesterday for city officials who arranged a $250,000 retirement payout to the disgraced police chief under federal investigation.

In a stunning scene Wednesday morning, three former high-ranking city officials surrendered to the FBI as part of the ongoing massive public corruption probe that resulted in the conviction of ex-Honolulu Police Chief Louis Kealoha and his wife, Katherine.

The three, who all served in the former Mayor Kirk Caldwell administration, are:

Former city Managing Director Roy Amemiya;

Ex-Honolulu Police Commissioner Max Sword;

And former Corporation Counsel Donna Leong, who was the city’s top civil attorney.

They turned themselves in at the FBI’s Kapolei office on Wednesday morning and were subsequently charged with conspiracy to defraud the U.S. as part of the city’s $250,000 payout to the disgraced former police chief in 2017, despite the fact that he was already a target of a federal investigation.

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2022/01/12/3-high-ranking-former-city-officials-surrender-fbi-part-massive-corruption-probe/

 

[TurkeysGhost]

A police substation in Los Angeles was out of operation earlier this week, and a notice posted on the inside of the door falsely claimed the closure was a consequence of "defunding".

In reality, in Los Angeles "defund the police" was never more than a slogan chanted by protesters a few times. The city's police department budget has in fact only increased since 2020, and a further increase of 12% is slated for a city council vote by this summer.

The proclamation by LAPD middle-management that "defunding" was responsible for the closure is the result of another "Big Lie"-type right-wing propaganda campaign that alleges widespread defunding of police departments across the country has led to reductions in police effectiveness and rising crime rates. The truth is that only a handful of municipalities actually reduced their budgets in response to Black Lives Matter protests. Most places which put the question on the agenda or on a ballot ended up not reducing their police budgets.

Cops can't stub their toe stumbling to the bathroom in the middle of the night without blaming "defunding".

 

[Cainkane1]

My father was an MP during WW2. He joined the Alameda police force after the war. One day he saw a Mexican gang member called Pachukos looking suspicious. He went over to this gang member who pulled out a bicycle chain and tore my fathers legs open. My father beat him with a Billy club and a weapon called a slapjack. He almost killed him. This was in the late 40's.

He was given leave but it was decided that my fathers injuries justified his use of force. He carried deep ugly scars on his legs for the rest of his life. He ended up being a detective which is an occupation he was in until total retirement.

I don't know what the public would think of him if he was on a modern police force.