Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Andy_Ross]

Not specifically Y64, but a helicopter, or two.

We know Y 64 was not one of the first helicopters in the air , it was the 7th to arrive.

Are you now saying one of the earlier helicopters kidnapped the officers?

 

[Stamuel]

I have been looking into the Avo Piht story to try to figure out where the various claims come from.

This article from Yle contains a lot of information. It has a photo of a list of survivors, which my machine translation suggests was posted in front of Tallinn's shipping terminal. (In Finnish: "Aamulla Tallinnan laivaterminaalin edessä liput ovat puolitangossa. Paikalle kokoontuu Estonian matkustajien ja henkilökunnan omaisia. Heitä yhdistää suunnaton suru ja epätietoisuus. Toimistovirkailija tulee kiinnittämään infopisteen ikkunaan ensimmäisten pelastuneiden listan. Terminaalissa syttyy hetkeksi toivonkipinä. Lista on valitettavan lyhyt, nopeasti ja harakanvarpain kirjoitettu. Pelastuneiden joukossa on kapteeni Avo Piht.") I have attached the photo to the post. You can see that it has Piht's name, though spelled wrong as 'Aavo Piht'. It does not have his date of birth.

In that article, the claim that all survivors had to give their date of birth comes from Captain Jüri Lember, who was in Rostock, Germany at the time of the sinking and thinks he saw Piht get out of an ambulance on TV. The machine translated sentence is: "In his opinion, only those who had personally given their name and year of birth were included in the list of names." (Finnish: "Lember sanoo, että tämä todistaa Pihtin pelastuneen. Hänen mielestään nimilistalle pääsivät vain ne, jotka olivat itse henkilökohtaisesti kertoneet nimensä ja syntymävuotensa.") So it looks like the source of the claim that all survivors had to give date of birth is just the opinion of someone who was not there and was not involved in the rescue in any way. (Another article from a different website also attributes the idea of date of birth to Lember.)

As far as who saw Piht alive or listed him as a survivor, all we get is: "‎According to several unofficial sources, Captain Piht was first brought by helicopter to Utön island and then to Turku.‎" (Finnish: "Useiden epävirallisten lähteiden mukaan kapteeni Piht tuotiin helikopterilla ensimmäisten pelastuneiden joukossa aluksi Utön saarelle ja sieltä Turkuun.") None of the unofficial sources are named or even described. This is it.

Oh, there is also this claim from Pirjo Peltoniemi, a retired journalist who used to work for Yle:

I remember well when a strong rumour began to circulate on the day of estonia's sinking that Captain Piht had been brought to Turku Hospital with injury. Yle's news editorial asked me to look for him.

Checking the rumor was caught up in other more pressing news.

I asked the Coast Guard of Western Finland if they would have to give Estonia a list of names for those who have been rescued. They eventually gave me a list, but it doesn't mention Avo Pihti's name. Turku University Hospital says that they have no information on the list of names of the rescued people brought to the hospital.

(Finnish: Muistan hyvin, kun Estonian uppoamispäivänä alkoi liikkua vahva huhu, että kapteeni Piht olisi loukkaantuneena tuotu Turun sairaalaan. Ylen uutistoimitus pyysi minua etsimään häntä.

Huhun tarkistaminen jäi muiden kiireellisempien uutisten jalkoihin.

Kysyin Länsi-Suomen merivartiostolta, olisiko heillä antaa Estonialta pelastuneiden nimilistaa. Sain heiltä lopulta listan, mutta siinä ei mainita Avo Pihtin nimeä. Turun yliopistollisesta keskussairaalasta kerrotaan, että heillä ei ole tietoa sairaalaan tuotujen pelastuneiden nimilistasta.)

The closest thing to a witness in all of this is a guy who thought he saw him on TV.

There is another article about whether Piht was rescued that focuses on Avo Piht's wife and her claim that she knows exactly how he was rescued. However, the article says, "'We cannot comment further on this letter,' says Sirje Piht, who does not explain where or how she received the data concerning Avo Piht." (Estonian: "«Rohkem seda kirja kommenteerida ei saa,» ütleb Sirje Piht, kes ei selgita, kust või kuidas sai ta Avo Pihti puudutavad andmed.")

It really looks like the initial sources are a list posted at an information desk in Tallinn and people who thought they saw him on TV. None of the articles I found have a better source.

Interestingly, this article by Christopher Bollyn about Avo Piht contains all of the spin and misinformation that Vixen has been spouting, including the claim that Sweden "disappeared" two Egyptians in 2001. It is very light on sources, though, so isn't actually any help.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The guy who noted the names and dates of birth of the rescued as they boarded the ships.

What about hose that weren't taken to ships?

Was it the same man that made the list on all the ships and shore stations?

How did he get about between them to do it?

 

[Marras]

You are mixing up the concept of when the lawyer discovered the act had taken place and how long the chap was actually missing for until he was exactly located in situ.

Let me tell this to you in words that you might understand as you apparently are completely unwilling to understand English:

Kun valtio järjestää jonkun katoamisen, niin se tarkoittaa sitä, että henkilö katoaa kokonaan ja valtio kiistää tietävänsä hänestä mitään.

Tässä tapauksessa egyptiläiset karkoitettiin laittomasti, ja se kerrottiin heidän lakimiehilleen 48 tunnin kuluttua.

Ruotsi ei missään vaiheessa väittänyt, että heidän olinpaikkansa ei ollut tiedossa.

Edited by Agatha: 

Rough translation:

When the state arranges for someone to disappear, it means that the person disappears completely and the state denies knowing anything about him.

In this case, the Egyptians were deported illegally, and their lawyers were told after 48 hours.

At no point did Sweden claim that their whereabouts were unknown.

Please post in English. Post a translation for any foreign language passages you post.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I was referring to the chronology. A poster posed, 'How can he have disappeared if he turned up 90 years later?'

The undermining of your own argument was accidental, but you yourself said it.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Yes, I do need you to explain, as old Buggins who went round with his pen and paper listing the survivors has no idea how come he has twelve names too many.

Is it your suggestion that each list of survivors published was created by an individual going around with pencil and paper and noting down the details of those present? With survivors in multiple locations, how do you propose that worked?

If you think it is vital to discover how each list was compiled and where errors crept in during the initial confusion then you may have a mountain of detective work ahead of you. You may also be a few decades late to begin.

 

[Matthew Best]

Interestingly, this article by Christopher Bollyn about Avo Piht contains all of the spin and misinformation that Vixen has been spouting, including the claim that Sweden "disappeared" two Egyptians in 2001. It is very light on sources, though, so isn't actually any help.

Christopher Bollyn?

Oh, dear.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

If the police arrest you, you are not disappeared by the state until such time you are removed from the country without a hearing and as ordered by the state.

You're making up your own legal definitions again. Please don't do that.

By your definition the disappeared from Argentina's grim period of dictatorship were not disappeared as they were murdered without being deported.

 

[JesseCuster]

If Svensson suffered extreme trauma from falling into the sea having to release himself from his winch,

Who said that?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Christopher Bollyn the Anti-semite truther who thinks 9/11 was done by Israel?

This is your source Vixen?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The right to a fair trial covers not having a trial at all, so would qualify for damages and would help establish a case for illegal disappearance by a state.

You're making stuff up again. Having one right denied is not evidence of having a different one denied. The Egyptians were not disappeared by Sweden. No amount of twisting will make it so.

 

[JesseCuster]

If the police arrest you, you are not disappeared by the state until such time you are removed from the country without a hearing and as ordered by the state.

Why do you think the forced disappearance involves "removing someone from the country"?

You're just making this up as you go.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

That is incorrect.

SOLAS made the recommendation that such vessels should have installed an automatically activated EPIRB on either side of the vessel and that the edict should be complied with by 1993 iirc.

MRCC Turku Commander Mononen expressed great concern about there being no sign of any signals from the Estonia EPIRB's, which had they been 'manual operation only' would not be rocket science as to why not.


He even went so far as to order the Norwegian base that received the COSPAS-SARSAT signal from that region to search their records for a possible missed signal because he could not figure out how it could not have sent a signal if it had floated free.

Wrong. A recommendation is not an edict. We have been through this exhaustively and nobody is confused, however hard you try to muddy the water.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Er, it was fitted to a hydrostatic release unit.

We all know this. Nobody is confused. Please stop trying to cause confusion where there is none.

 

[JesseCuster]

You say the lawyer of one of the men became aware of the removal 48-hours later but was he told where the man was and how he could be contacted?

The very nature of forced disappearance is that the state refuses to acknowledge that the person disappeared was ever arrested, detained, tortured, killed, whatever.

If the state acknowledges that the person is in their custody such that a lawyer can become aware of their detention, then they haven't been disappeared.

Now you're just being wilfully obtuse.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The immediate claim it was caused by the bow visor falling off due to a strong wave lifting it up (forgetting that the same wave would press the car ramp door firmly shut) and that it was a 'design fault'.


Claiming it was a mark two version of The Herald of Free Enterprise was very clever, for sure.

Your initial claim, so very often repeated by you, that Bildt made this declaration within hours of the sinking turns out to be hogwash. Maybe you need reminding.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Not specifically Y64, but a helicopter, or two.

Which, then? As you claim it's logged, show us what's logged.

 

[JayUtah]

The right to a fair trial covers not having a trial at all, so would qualify for damages and would help establish a case for illegal disappearance by a state.

The two Egyptians did successfully bring suit against Sweden for deprivation of their right to due process. Which, of course, cannot happen if they are "disappaered." An element of enforced disappearance is the intent to deny the victims access to protection of the law. They had the protection of the law in Egypt (although with dubious efficacy), and had access to international courts.

However, the judgment enforced against the Egyptian deportees without due process was a judgment for expulsion from the country while an asylum claim was pending, not the action of enforced disappearance (which can never be lawfully enforced, even if due process is followed). It was further found that a result of their having been deprived of due process was exposure to the possibility of torture, a separate crime. That crime can be committed either by consciously deporting someone to place where they reasonably face torture, or negligently failing to determine whether that would be the case. Sweden's defense was that they had obtained assurances from the Egyptian government that the men would not be tortured. But insofar as the negotiation of those assurances had not involved the deportees, or seriously considered the evidence they might present, it was ruled to have been negligent.

Making a case for failed due process does not mean you can invent whatever the process should have been about, had due process been followed. Law is very rigidly about the minutiae. You can't just make up your own definitions and "findings" and pretend that's how the law operates.

 

[JesseCuster]

I was referring to the chronology. A poster posed, 'How can he have disappeared if he turned up 90 years later?'

What poster posted that question?

 

[Axxman300]

The fact Sirhan Sirhan is now walking around the neighbourhood doesn't cancel out that he was jailed for life.

He wasn't "Disappeared". Everyone knew where he was every step of the way from his arrest, to the trial, to prison.

You can even write him a letter.

He wasn't dragged into a van, never to be seen a again...which is what "Disappeared" means...

And do you know who IS walking the streets today? Those two Egyptians.