• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

Status
Not open for further replies.
Vixen said:
Bengt Stenmark, the official in charge of waterways transport at the time, informed Reuters thus.

Where is the correction if this was a 'mistake'?

Why was Stenmark sacked?
Click to expand...

Updated lists were released, why wouldn't that count as a retraction of earlier lists?

Is this where you are getting the kidnapping and secret helicopter flight from?

https://theprimesuspect.wordpress.com/tag/sweden/
 
Vixen said:
Do look at the official team lists, as kindly supplied by Here to Learn.

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/ES002173_00037#?c=&m=&s=&cv=36&xywh=-380,116,4070,2255

And the official Swedish government site, listing the helicopters and numbers rescued.

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=helikopterinsatser

That is the official fact of the matter. The JAIC narrative description is simply a word salad to cover up the fact of the need for the survivors list to be downsized.
Click to expand...

It details all the helicopters involved and their actions
What do you think 'team lists' show?

Where do either of those documents show your secret flight by Y 64?

How do they contradict the JAIC report that they are supplements to?
 
Last edited:
Vixen said:
That is like saying, "How come Sirhan Sirhan is walking around his neighbourhood if he was jailed?"
Click to expand...

No, it isn't. People who are disappeared are never heard from again. That's why it's called being disappeared. Because you disappear.
 
Vixen said:
That does not work. There were only 138 (then) survivors officially when original lists show 149, including the senior officers of the crew. If the number of survivors is so extremely tiny out of a thousand people, not it is not at all equivalent to the Twin Towers on 9/11.
Click to expand...


As usual, you've totally misunderstood/misinterpreted/misrepresented my post.

Go back and read it again. And this time, try to discern the actual point I was making.
 
Vixen said:
Being visited by your old mum every fortnight does not cancel out your being disappeared by a state, as Mojo flippantly claims.
Click to expand...


What the bejeeeezus? That's a totally malign and bogus misrepresentation of Mojo's post and Mojo's position. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Your posts have totally lost touch with reality now, Vixen.
 
Vixen said:
Do look at the official team lists, as kindly supplied by Here to Learn.

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/ES002173_00037#?c=&m=&s=&cv=36&xywh=-380,116,4070,2255

And the official Swedish government site, listing the helicopters and numbers rescued.

https://sok.riksarkivet.se/estonia?infosida=helikopterinsatser

That is the official fact of the matter. The JAIC narrative description is simply a word salad to cover up the fact of the need for the survivors list to be downsized.
Click to expand...

How about you read the operational report parts for Y-64 and Y-74. The section with headings "Genomförande".

Especially the part from Y-74 that says:

"Kl0615 funnit flotte med tre överlevande. Ytb MOG meddelar at han ej kan arbeta vidare [blanked] Ytb SEK vinschas ner för att unsätta de tre nödställda i rättvand flotte med kapell."

What do you think that means?
 
Vixen said:
Being visited by your old mum every fortnight does not cancel out your being disappeared by a state, as Mojo flippantly claims.
Click to expand...

My old mum is dead. Your belittling her actually hurts me as it would her. Yeah but you don't care, right?

My mom was epic. It didn't matter what happened, there you would be in the throes of whatever disaster, and she would sit you down with a bowl home made soup and make you feel like you had found refuge from whatever crisis.

I have tried my best to do the same for whatever needy happen my way.
But such people are clearly unimportant to you.
 
Vixen said:
Yes, diving into the sea to instinctively save someone is brave and commendable. However, it can also be seen to be foolhardy to put yourself in danger and likewise your colleague from Y74 who also has to suffer the extreme trauma of rescuing you, which he did succesfully.

I am not questioning Svensson's obvious bravery and tear-jerking heroism, I am questioning how come he as team helicopter Y64 is only credited with ONE live rescue, and I suggest it is because he did rescue people that included the senior officers of the crew, which had to be downsized later when they were 'disappeared'.


Let's face it, in my books Moberg or Olsson should also have had some kind of medal for rescuing not only him but also Y69.

So the medal seems to serve another function.
Click to expand...


Firstly, and once again, Y69 and Y64 are not people. Y69 and Y64 are helicopters. Your continuing inability to recognise this distinction is, I'm afraid, illustrative of your inability to understand so very much about this incident.

Secondly, the reason why Y64 (which is a helicopter, remember - not Svensson, and not the crew) rescued only one live survivor is because its winch broke. You've now been reliably informed about this several times.

Svensson, who'd been the rescue man on Y64, was therefore by definition unable to do his job out of Y64 once its (Y64's) winch broke. And on top of that, it broke while Svensson was being lowered - meaning that instead of being able to re-board Y64, Svensson had to unclip himself from the winch cable until he himself was rescued by another helicopter.

This is all incredibly simple and logical to understand. It's only you who is grafting on all this nonsensical (and entirely evidence-free) bat guano about secret disappearances and so on. You're a conspiracy theorist, Vixen. By definition.
 
Vixen said:
Bengt Stenmark, the official in charge of waterways transport at the time, informed Reuters thus.

Where is the correction if this was a 'mistake'?

Why was Stenmark sacked?
Click to expand...

Where is the correction, you ask.

For example, here https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003371032.html

"Estonia-turman tutkimuskomissio on kuulustellut kapteeni Pihtia, kertoi Ruotsin merenkulkuhallituksen turvallisuuspäällikkö Bengt Erik Stenmark perjantaina. Tutkijalautakunta kuitenkin kiisti perjantaina Stenmarkin tiedot."

"The safety official of Swedish maritime office [*] Bengt Erik Stenmark told on Friday that the investigation committee for Estonia disaster had interrogated captain Piht. However, on Friday the committee said that Stenmark's information was wrong."


[*] I have the foggiest clue of what the official translation to the title is and I can't be bothered to find out.
 
Marras said:
Where is the correction, you ask.

For example, here https://www.hs.fi/kotimaa/art-2000003371032.html

"Estonia-turman tutkimuskomissio on kuulustellut kapteeni Pihtia, kertoi Ruotsin merenkulkuhallituksen turvallisuuspäällikkö Bengt Erik Stenmark perjantaina. Tutkijalautakunta kuitenkin kiisti perjantaina Stenmarkin tiedot."

"The safety official of Swedish maritime office [*] Bengt Erik Stenmark told on Friday that the investigation committee for Estonia disaster had interrogated captain Piht. However, on Friday the committee said that Stenmark's information was wrong."


[*] I have the foggiest clue of what the official translation to the title is and I can't be bothered to find out.
Click to expand...

Hmmm.
This reminds of of something.

Your translation of the Finnish text sounds like a real translation. Not one made by Google Translate.

I've just checked what the endresult would be through Google (The Estonia Turma Investigation Commission has questioned Captain Piht, said Bengt Erik Stenmark, safety manager at the Swedish Maritime Administration, on Friday. However, a panel of investigators disputed Stenmark's data on Friday ). The gist of it can be deduced from it, but no one can deny this to be a machine translation.

Now, what I'm wondering about is the following. Why do Vixen's translations of Finnish texts (and remember, she professes to live in Finland and is always hot about the etymology of various Finnish words), read like these come from Google Translate?
One of the last of Vixen's translations, I've put through Google and came away with the exact words she used.
This suggests to me, she in fact doesn't speak Finnish. Maybe good enough to order a cup of coffee or such (which is no shame, my Italian or French does not raise much above this level as well, but then again, I do not live in those countries), but certainly not good enough to translate a text.

Then again.
I'm glad Vixen does it this way, because at least we know it is an honest translation, and not one processed through Vixen's biased mind.
 
erwinl said:
Now, what I'm wondering about is the following. Why do Vixen's translations of Finnish texts (and remember, she professes to live in Finland and is always hot about the etymology of various Finnish words), read like these come from Google Translate?
Click to expand...

She might be using Google translate to translate them. I have communicated with her in Finnish before so I don't doubt that she is actually Finnish.

Though, I feel that her English is not as good as she thinks it is.
 
Marras said:
She might be using Google translate to translate them. I have communicated with her in Finnish before so I don't doubt that she is actually Finnish.

Though, I feel that her English is not as good as she thinks it is.
Click to expand...

Oh okay,

That answers my question and doubt.
I understood her to be a Brit living in Finland and maybe she was one of those Brits living abroad, but never learning the language.

But it now seems I misjudged her on this particular issue.
 
As we have more native Finnish speakers in the discussion may I cheekily ask your opinion about a previous puzzle concerning the ship's emergency buoys. The quote Vixen found "Estonian hätäpoijuistaoli unohtunut viritys" seems to say they were not "tuned" but there was no provision for the users to tune the transmitters so I wonder if viritys has a broader nuance which might mean activate or similar. Any opinions gratefully received.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom