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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Vixen said:
The logs ae still there. Jutta Rabe claims to have seen the pilots log books.

The Defence Forces, Police and hospitals are by their nature confidential in nature. It is easy enough to remove a file from central databases.

I worked in insolvency practice for many years and we had quite a few famous and well-known people as clients, you would be amazed how many were on the verge of bankruptcy. Never once have I discussed their identities with friends or family. Never felt the need to, never will. What happens at work stays at work.

When I did Proceeds of Crime Act work, our offices were carefully inspected to ensure no-one who was not authorised had any access to the confidential locked-up files, that nobody could break in and security vetting done of all staff, no criminal convictions allowed. People in jobs of a confidential nature just don't talk.

Someone I know well worked at the Home Office, had access to all the police computers and Central Criminal Records, never breathed a word about anything. That is my experience of people in such positions.

Even if an ex-nurse at Huddinge Hospital were to ring up a newspaper and say, 'I treated one of the disappeared in 1994', who is even going to believe her? Where is her proof? What paper would publish it?
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Jutta Rabe is either telling lies or mistaken.
A pilot log book has already been discussed in the thread and even example pages posted They do not contain what either of you claim.

As for the rest of the post, how would you have felt if the police came in and confiscated some of the files you were working on?
 
Vixen said:
Why would you even need wikipedia. A child could tell you how it works.

Take a piece of A4 paper and three drawing pins.

Place one drawing in the top corner on one side of the paper and another on the opposite top corner and press them down into a wall or board. Place the third in the middle of the paper at the bottom and ditto.

Now remove the bottom drawing pin. Does the paper still remain in place, perfectly secure?

Replace the bottom pin (which represents the Atlantic lock and the paper the bow visor) and now remove one of the pins on either of the corners. What happens?

This demonstrates where the weight of the paper is being bourne.


The bottom pin is merely an accessory, which takes some of the strain off the top two pins (i.e. the side locks) but not by any significant amount.

Now you can see why even if as the JAIC claim the Atlantic lock broke off because of a strong wave, it doesn't ipso facto lead to the two side locks also breaking off.
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The paper in your example is only being subject to one directional force, downward gravitational pull from its own weight. That's not true of a ship's bow.

A ship's bow has buoyancy. When the bow plunges into a wave, that results in a very strong upward force on it. (This is normally a good thing, it helps keep the ship afloat.) The fore portion of the keel is in tension as the bow buoyancy torques the rest of the ship. The Atlantic lock experiences that tension.

To simulate what happens at sea when the net force on the bow is upward, try your push pin and paper experiment with the corner pins at the bottom corners and the third pin at the top center. What happens now, when you remove that center pin?
 
Marras said:
And if you continue to lie about what Helsingin Sanomat wrote on 1994-09-29, then that's your prerogative.

But note that no one else is obligated to believe your lies.
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I quoted Helsingin Sanomat, together with date and link. You claimed Härkätie did not exist, except in Somero and then you tried to make out it only existed in such and such a place. When it was made a motorway in 1952, having to be more or less dead straight, it did not follow the windings of the Aurajoki as the Härkätie proper did, but it is still essentially where Härkätie was, and in fact the portion of Härkätie that still follows the Aurajoki was renamed Vanha Härkätie (The Old Ox Road). There was a dead man found on Härkätie during the 1918 Civil War. There is an article about it in TURUN SANOMAT in 1918.
 
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Vixen said:
If you do not believe early day quality newspapers, that is your prerogative.
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Why would you rely on a newspaper and not the primary sources?

I don't believe anything in the papers without some other corroboration.
 
zooterkin said:
Er, no, it's your fantasy.
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No, I said they were disappeared after rescue.

The Trident post is in response to a poster who claimed it was impossible for anyone to be located in the dark and I responded there actually commando teams of frogmen who can do exactly that sort of thing if required.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
Well there's these questions Vixen, but there was also:



Now you did respond to this by saying it was in Hoffmeister's report, but as Jay pointed out that is not an acceptable answer and responded thus:


Which you, of course, ignored.
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Are you able to pose questions that relate to the topic of the thread?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Jutta Rabe is either telling lies or mistaken.
A pilot log book has already been discussed in the thread and even example pages posted They do not contain what either of you claim
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Haha. That reminds me.

Earlier in this thread, Vixen posted a page from a "flight log book' which was pinned up in a hospital for some reason and which was just a handwritten list of names on piece of paper.

Just thought I'd mention that because it's funny.
 
Vixen said:
Are you able to pose questions that relate to the topic of the thread?
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Are you saying the contents of Hoffmeister's report are not on-topic for this thread? Are you saying Anders Björkman, whom you're still obviously using as a source, is not relevant to this thread?
 
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Captain_Swoop said:
Why would you rely on a newspaper and not the primary sources?

I don't believe anything in the papers without some other corroboration.
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It was a press conference by the JAIC Chairman, Kari Lehtola and shortly after the same thing was reiterated in an official preliminary report. This was reported in Helsingin Sanomat on 5 October 1994 - six days after the disaster, thus already on Day Five the conclusions had been made.

Preliminary report by the Commission of Inquiry completed Estonia sinking began with the detachment of the visor Backman Nils-Eric 5.10.1994 2:00 The cause of the sinking of TURKU-Estonia has been confirmed by a devastating sequence of events. First the ship's visor was cut off, then the water leaked through the bow ramp to the car deck in the storm. When the car deck filled with water, the ship lost its severity and capsized.
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HS

This is why I believe what the papers said. Perhaps explain why an official press conference and official preliminary report should not be taken seriously.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
That's another lie. Here is the Wiki page on the incident in question. Please point to where it says what you claim.
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I don't think Vixen will be very happy with that Wikipedia article. The title is "Repatriation of Ahmed Agiza and Muhammad al-Zery". The first paragraph says:
Ahmed Agiza (Arabic: أحمد عجيزة) and Muhammad Alzery (Arabic: محمد الزيري) (also Elzari, el-Zary, etc.) were two Egyptian asylum-seekers who were deported to Egypt from Sweden on December 18, 2001, apparently following a request from the United States Central Intelligence Agency.[1] The forced repatriation was criticized because of the danger of torture and ill treatment, and because the deportation decision was executed the same day without notifying the lawyers of the asylum seekers. The deportation was carried out by American and Egyptian personnel on Swedish ground, with Swedish servicemen apparently as passive onlookers.
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According to this article, which Vixen pointed us to, everyone except Vixen has been using the correct terms to describe the incident.
 
JayUtah said:
Are you saying the contents of Hoffmeister's report are not on-topic for this thread? Are you saying Anders Björkman, whom you're still obviously using as a source, is not relevant to this thread?
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I already gave you my opinion on each of those persons.

I already told you I have no time for 'deniers', antivaxxers or conspiracy theorists. I am only interested in what is true.

Quaere verum
 
Vixen said:
No, I said transcripts show that a helicopter was launched within fifteen minutes of being logged by Stockholm MRCC whose operational records are logged at 0202 and as confirmed by Turku MRCC to Silja Europa at 0227, that the Swedish helicopter would be there 'in ten minutes'.


A poster claimed that this cannot have happened because how could anyone know who were the senior officers because it was their assumption - not mine! - that the early flight was an exercise to kidnap the senior officers.
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The first helicopter was alerted but didn't take off for almost an hour as it took time to prepare. It was a Finnish helicopter.
We have gone through the standby, alert, takeoff and arrival times for all the helicopter flights.
 
Vixen said:
They were disappeared as per the definition set out in Rome 1998 (Criminal Law Treaty). This was upheld by a court of law and the European Court of Human Rights.


Your calling it an innocent deportation or some other such disgusting euphemism does not cancel out the legal situation.
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Show me where it says they were disappeared.
 
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