Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Reformed Offlian]

Wouldn't asking an Anti Submarine helicopter crew to kidnap civilian survivors of a shipwreck be an illegal order anyway?

Why would they go along with it?

Well, Estonia went down in international waters, right?

They told the crew that would make them pirates, and they were in.

 

[JesseCuster]

We have Spetznaz, submarines, explosives, mines, torpedoes, nuclear waste, corrosive pixies for all I know at this point. It is hilarious.

But there's no conspiracy theory...

 

[LondonJohn]

Wouldn't asking an Anti Submarine helicopter crew to kidnap civilian survivors of a shipwreck be an illegal order anyway?

Why would they go along with it?

Well they were in the vicinity anyhow, having been sent there to destroy the submarine that had wheeled itself along the seabed and sunk the Estonia. So why not also use them to "disappear" those survivors from the Estonia? And after all, the helicopter crew were already inside the conspiracy up to their necks by that point anyhow. But I wonder how they blew up that submarine so spectacularly that zero trace of it remained? Perhaps that's what Svensson really got his medal for...?

 

[GlennB]

Well they were in the vicinity anyhow, having been sent there to destroy the submarine that had wheeled itself along the seabed and sunk the Estonia. So why not also use them to "disappear" those survivors from the Estonia? And after all, the helicopter crew were already inside the conspiracy up to their necks by that point anyhow. But I wonder how they blew up that submarine so spectacularly that zero trace of it remained? Perhaps that's what Svensson really got his medal for...?

Fool! No, he recovered the heroin that had been pushed out the front of the ship and the medal-awarding guys made a fortune from it on the black market.

 

[JesseCuster]

Fool! No, he recovered the heroin that had been pushed out the front of the ship and the medal-awarding guys made a fortune from it on the black market.

Wait, wait, wait! Where does the bow visor lock dissolving caesium fit into all of this?

 

[GlennB]

Wait, wait, wait! Where does the bow visor lock dissolving caesium fit into all of this?

It was ... er, ... a diversion away from the truth of the matter, and it worked! I read it in the secret archives of Aftonbladet, to which I gained access after giving lessons in Cockney rhyming slang to ... er, ... Carl Bildt. Kemo Sabe?

 

[Andy_Ross]

All seems a bit Gay to me. When was the last time you were in a war?

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Ok ca someone link to the Vixen post where she calls something gay because I'm not sure what you're talking about.

I believe you all, I'm just saying I can't find it.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Ok ca someone link to the Vixen post where she calls something gay because I'm not sure what you're talking about.

I believe you all, I'm just saying I can't find it.

Post 2785

Not being funny but there is a common stereotype amongst older Finns of the Swedes as being 'gay', probably because they have never had to go to war, at least, not since 1721 at the Battle of Poltava (which included Finns of course, including my own sixth-great-grandfather, a major under Leuwenhaupt) or a skirmish with the Norwegians in 1788. I asked a few Finns whether this was a common view of the Swedes and they answered unfortunately, yes. [Don't shoot me, I am only the messenger. Hopefully people are more enlightened nowadays especially as Tom of Finland put gay art on the map.)

 

[Matthew Best]

The only Finns I have ever known personally were terrible drinkers. One, my very good friend Kaisu, once passed out on my living room floor in the middle of a sentence. There was a mortifying thud as her head hit the floor. Thankfully she was fine the next morning.

Just saying…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Post 2785

probably because they have never had to go to war, at least, not since 1721 at the Battle of Poltava (which included Finns of course, including my own sixth-great-grandfather, a major under Leuwenhaupt) or a skirmish with the Norwegians in 1788.

Never noticed that before, but this is a really odd and historically illiterate thing for a Finn to think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_War

 

[Marras]

Never noticed that before, but this is a really odd and historically illiterate thing for a Finn to think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_War

It is very historically illiterate for many reasons. Thugh, I suspect that Vixen doesn't count Finnish War because the regiments that took part in main operations were raised in Finland and manned almost completely by ethnic Finns. The officers were largely Swedish, though, and there were battles where ethnically Swedish units fought (like the Battle of Lejonströmsbron on 15 May 1809 where Västerbotten's Regiment fought).

For other errors, Vixen gets the date of the Battle of Poltava wrong. It happened in Summer 1709, it was the peace that happened in 1721. Also, there were no Finnish units fighting there even though there were Finns, both common soldiers and officers. The Finnish regiments had been crushed in Lewenhaupt's blunder at Lesnaya and their men were distributed to Swedish regiments to reinforce them close to full strength.

More importantly, Vixen forgets the two other wars that were fought in Finland in the 18th century: the Russo-Swedish wars of 1741-3 ("The War of the Hats") and 1789-91 ("Gustav III's War"). Both of whom were started by Sweden and were conducted by invasion forces that contained the bulk of the Swedish army, including the regiments from the mainland.

Finally, there's the minor contribution of Sweden to the Napoleonic Wars after Bernadotte was made the heir to the crown.

But basically, this post is a good example of how Vixen's thought processes work: she vaguely remembers something, thinks that whatever she rememberes is the complete story, and then posts that with full conviction that she is is correct.

And none of this has any relevance to Estonia and related conspiracy theories.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Also Sweden was most notably in the Congo Crisis, Afghanistan and Lebanon.
In fact since 2009, 69 Medals Of Merit With Silver Sword (the award of which to Y 64 rescue man started this) were awarded to Swedish troops in Afghanistan, plus 65 Wounded In Battle awards.
I also notice that 4 of the Medals of merit awards in 2016 were to 'Classified individuals' for 'Classified' reasons.
This shows us that a story doesn't have to be invented to give the medal

 

[Vixen]

How do you know they didn't match? Neither you or the divers know what the officers looked like.

Er. They can look at the crew photographs as kept by their employers or provided by next-of-kin.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Er. They can look at the crew photographs as kept by their employers or provided by next-of-kin.

How do they do that under water? Do you think the faces would have beer the same after all that time in the water?

 

[Vixen]

OK, I’ve now gone through all the ‘Through German Eyes’ columns contemporary with the battle of Stalingrad (and up to about a month after the surrender), and all the later ones that mention Stalingrad. All are round-ups of the German (and sometimes other countries) media, reports of speeches by the German leadership, etc.

None of them contains comment from “ordinary German soldiers”, or supports your claim of Times reporters going undercover as spies embedded in the German army.

I draw your attention to my post which spelt out I was researching WWII form the POV of Finland. Whilst going through the newspapers in the BL Newspaper Library which was then at Colindale (now at the main building and on internet only AFAIAA) I did get distracted by what else was going on during the time period 1939 - 1945. The object of my paragraph stating this was WWII, and as an example, this included The Battle of Stalingrad as it unfolded. Another example was a fascinating article in which a correspondent reported on what the German soldiers were saying about the Brits, which could only have been from someone there with them to overhear it. Subject: WWII. At no time did I state this was a Stalingrad front line. The system at the BLNL was old-fashioned microfiche. If you wanted a copy you filled in a form giving reference of what you wanted copied and paid for it. These came in size A4 or A3. I took numerous copies from British, German, Swiss, Swedish and Finnish newspapers of the day. The Third Reich papers were available in original newspaper form only and in a special section overseen by beady-eyed librarians, and you had to hold a member's card (=British Library Readers Card). Presumably because of the real threat of vandalism or theft. or accessing politically sensitive material. These newspapers tended to be very childish in tone anyway with silly cartoons. The other German language papers seemed to be largely in the old style fraktur font and difficult to read. So apart from the large expense of all the relevant photocopying, only a few were unconnected with my research subject topic matter. These included one or two 'In German Eyes' columns as they were so well-written and researched and there was an old TURUN SANOMAT that reported from 1918 on the Civil War re some of the senseless sectarian killings going on (random persons found dead on the old Härkätie, for example). The articles on ordinary Germans were interesting from a human point of view and I have copies about the huge ships set up in Murmansk used to imprison the very large numbers who went AWOL/deserted, together with the Nazi executions of the Norwegian resistance civilians, including bank managers et al . I have several box files of these newsclippings.

ISTM if you have access to the TIMES all along, then you are simply wasting my time in trying to search through my archives to find them for you, when all you need do is browse through the paper yourself and you will be sure to find it.

Correct me if I am wrong but your sole aim is to 'score a point' and is nothing at all to do with any interest at all in the subject matter.

 

[Vixen]

Why was a similar medal given to nobody else who carried out this "Top Secret" (LOL) mission alongside Svensson?

Or are you going to suggest that it was Svensson alone who participated in this "Top Secret" mission (of your imagination)? Did Svensson also fly the helicopter himself and operate his own winch, in this fantasy "Top Secret" flight of yours?

The secret services arm of the Swedish Defence Forces is MUST and it could well be that Ensign Kenneth Svensson was a member of this highly secretive arm. Maybe it was his mission to identify the senior crew and to bring them in.

You will note that the On Scene Commander was Esa Mäkelä, Captain of Silja Europa. The plan was that because only one or two helicopters were able to land on deck in the treacherous conditions, the Super Pumas, the rescue helicopters were to take the survivors to Utö, the nearest populated land base, and from there they would be transferred to an appropriate hospital in Turku, Hango or Mariehamn.

READINESS 7.5.4

The Finnish helicopters OH-HVG and OH-HVD landed on the passenger ferries, but the other helicopters took the rescued survivors to land-based locations. Landing on heaving and rolling ferries was considered too dangerous. The pilot of OH-HVG stated that landing on the ferries was the most difficult part of the whole rescue operation. The medical executive team at MRCC Turku immediately started to raise medical readiness and decided at 0245 hrs to send a team headed by a physician to the coastal island fortress of Utö, the closest island to the scene of the accident. However, no helicopters were available for transport, so a team headed by a physician was sent from Mariehamn to Utö at 0620 hrs.
When it became clear that not all the rescued survivors could be carried to the vessels, MRCC Turku gave instructions to bring them to Utö as necessary The reasons were that the flight time would be shorter and the risk of hypothermia less. Utö thus became the most important assembly point for survivors, of whom the helicopters brought 24 to the fortress for transfer to hospital care. The fortress personnel, guided by nurses, attended to the survivors' treatment. The medical team arrived at Utö at about 0650 hrs.
The use of Utö as an assembly point became more difficult by 0630 hrs when the supply of helicopter fuel ran out. Helicopters were advised to fly to Nauvo, Turku or Hanko for refuelling. MRCC Turku ordered hospitals to prepare to receive patients, and ground transport was organised from the refuelling sites to the hospitals. Helicopters arriving in Turku for refuelling landed first at the Turku University Central Hospital landing site to leave the survivors before proceeding to the base for refuelling.

JAIC 7.5.4

Questions for you:

1. So why did Svensson take the 'six (or seven or eight) survivors plus body' to Huddinge, Stockholm, when after all, it was only a small SAR helicopter?

2. If Y64 and Y74 both only arrived circa six and seven in the morning and only returned to Berga circa 0930/15:30 earliest, how did Sven Eriksson get to file a newspaper story in same day Aftonbladet dated 28.9.1994 bearing in mind it takes two or three hours to do a print run?

3. Why did Y74 - which we are told by JAIC contains Svensson - fly to Huddinge instead of taking the survivors to the designated on-scene spot at Utö? OSC Silja Europa was in charge and that was the command.

4. Or was it more likely the Huddinge destination was before OSC had a chance to designate Utö as the point of collection for survivors (and in Finnish jurisdiction)?

Y 64 Y 64 took off from Berga at 0445 hrs, picked up a physician and a nurse from Huddinge Hospital and arrived at the scene of the accident at 0552 hrs.

<snip>

Y 64 brought the survivor to Utö. The medical personnel on board were left to assist the Finnish nursing staff. As requested by the staff, Y 64 transported 20 survivors from Utö to Turku University Central Hospital. After this Y 64 got permission from the OSC to return to Berga to repair the broken winch, and landed there at 1530 hrs.

JAIC 7.5.5

Y 74 took off from Berga at 0546 hrs. Carrying a physician and a nurse from Huddinge Hospital, Y 74 reached the scene of the accident at 0642 hrs.

<snip>

Y74 The six survivors, the injured rescue men and the body were taken to Huddinge Hospital, where the helicopter arrived at 0930 hrs.

JAIC 7.5.5

We are told Y74 arrived at Huddinge at 0930 which still presents timeline problems for Eriksson's article.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

The other German language papers seemed to be largely in the old style fraktur font and difficult to read.

The German papers had stopped using fraktur by the time they went to war with the Soviet Union.

 

[Vixen]

So why give one to the rescue man if they couldn't have done anything about not getting one anyway?

That is a question you need to ask yourself: Why give a medal to Svensson but no-one else?

 

[Vixen]

It bears reminding that waaaay back in one of the earlier threads, Vixen mistakenly thought Svensson *was* the pilot and/or commander of Y 64; I had to point out repeatedly that he was the rescue man before that bit, at least, sank in.

I don't think she's grokked how it changes her conceit of what happened, though.

Each helicopter had a designated crew, which included one or two winchmen, of which Svensson was one.

Teams don't tend to swap around in the middle of a mission. The OSC Captain Makela ordered helicopters with broken winches to discontinue and return to base.