Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Mojo]

That's pretty much what every CT eventually evolves into: the entire world is in one vast conspiracy to make the proponent look foolish.

I sad I wasn’t sure that Vixen wasn’t also in on it, didn’t I?

 

[malbui]

I sad I wasn’t sure that Vixen wasn’t also in on it, didn’t I?

I believe that the conspiracy is so close to discovery that an even higher-level conspiracy has been created in which Vixen has been sent out to pretend to be a complete blithering idiot in order to discredit the original conspiracy theory.

These people are fiendishly cunning.

 

[malbui]

It’s a tradition, or an old charter, or something, that conspirators must always leave clues to the existence of the conspiracy, just as Bond villains always explain the plot to Bond before trying to kill him.

Out of interest, Mojo, have you ever been to Penge?

 

[Mojo]

Out of interest, Mojo, have you ever been to Penge?

No, but I’ve heard it’s a very nice place.

 

[JayUtah]

Not faithfully being fully satisfied with the JAIC report does not make it a 'conspiracy theory'.

In your case it does. Your dissatisfaction with the official investigation is not based on any knowledge of the kinds of things they investigated, or how such investigations are properly performed. It's based primarily on ignorant supposition. It's further based on wild speculation regarding things you think should have happened but didn't, and things that you're sure happened but for which there is little if any evidence. It's predicated on what you and a few other ghouls see as a deliberate failure to uncover what to only you folks is an obvious conspiracy -- and therefore complicity in it. Most conspiracy theories lead with the accusation that the people charged with an investigation have deliberately botched it.

 

[JayUtah]

Simply calling something of public concern a 'conspiracy theory' does not make it so.

But you're not "simply" doing that. You've invented (or rather, borrowed) a number of narratives in which people have conspired to sink a ship and cover up the real cause and purpose of its sinking. There have been MS Estonia conspiracy theories and theorists from Day One. You haven't shown that the recent interest in the wreck has much to do with what they claim, although they're certainly capitalizing on it today. There's nothing wrong with simply wanting to find out more about what happened. But no, it's not normal or mainstream to connect that desire to the proposition that the initial investigation was deliberately misdirected by nefarious forces. What you're doing is not normal.

You're a conspiracy theorist. You're clearly publishing a conspiracy theory, though not a very coherent one. You've jumped into it with both feet and are defending it tooth and nail. There's no use trying to pretend you have only the noblest motives and only the clearest conscience. Nobody's buying it. Either own what you are, or find a more gullible audience for your self-indulgent fantasies.

Presumably, if you lived in China, you would be calling the Tiananmen Square massacre a 'conspiracy theory' by your reasoning (if one can call it that).

Straw man.

 

[GlennB]

Vixen I have provided the appropriate quote to prove to you that I do indeed own the book, now please provide the page number for your claim as I have requested.

It looks to me like Vixen is bluffing and doesn't even own the book, otherwise it would be a breeze to give the page number or just quote the sentence in question. Instead she quotes from The New Yorker.

 

[Mojo]

It looks to me like Vixen is bluffing and doesn't even own the book, otherwise it would be a breeze to give the page number or just quote the sentence in question. Instead she quotes from The New Yorker.

Note also Vixen’s disinclination to provide any information that would aid identification of a Times report she cited.

 

[Vixen]

Leaving aside this incorrigible terminological inexactitude of yours, why did the rest of Y64’s crew, who were certainly only credited with one rescue, not require compensation?

You do not 'demand' a medal you are awarded it.

 

[Vixen]

The conspiracy theory isn't that there was arms smuggling on the Estonia.

The conspiracy theories are all the BS about rogue KGB agents, secret escort British submarines, Spetsnaz, detonation charges, disappeared crew members, hidden helicopter flights, Israeli arms dealing, blank torpedo firing minisubs, wheeled submarines on the bottom of the Baltic, bow visor lock dissolving nuclear material, trucks full of heroin being pushed off the ship in the middle of a storm, etc.

You know, all that stuff that is clearly nutty conspiracy theory half-baked nonsense.

You know that how? Because you watch Homes Under the Hammer and Strictly Come Dancing? "They never mention no KGB agents, guv!"

 

[Vixen]

because after being stranded in the water and rescued himself he went on to take over from another rescue man and continued rescuing people until he himself was injured.

Classic candidate for a commendation.

If it was to keep him quiet about the 'secret mission' why were the pilot and the other crew members not given medals? What was their reward?

Oh please, 26 helicopters rescued 104 people. He wasn't the only one to fall into the water because of winch problems.

A medal is an award, not a reward.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

That wasn't the correct line from the book, but I'll let you have it since it is kindle.

I have forgotten what the quibble was ...

Permit me to remind you:

You claimed the Soviets breached the convention of not attacking hospital ships.

When challenged that the Wilhelm Gustloff was not a hospital ship you doubled down by claiming your reference was a textbook and superior to the unreliable Wikipedia. And that it told you the ship had been painted the traditional grey of a hospital ship.

When challenged again that grey isn't how hospital ships were designated, and by another poster who has the book and wanted the reference page, you did not supply the reference but rather defied them to prove they had the book.

That looks suspiciously like bluffing on your part. Either because the book does not support your claim at all or because you don't actually have the book.

So, having reminded you of how we got here, it would certainly set my mind at ease if you would provide the reference page for where your book says the Wilhelm Gustloff was painted as a hospital ship. Thanks in anticipation.

 

[JesseCuster]

You know that how? Because you watch Homes Under the Hammer and Strictly Come Dancing? "They never mention no KGB agents, guv!"

Yes, I know that your half-baked nonsense about rogue KGB agents, wheeled submarines, minisubs firing blank torpedos, detonation charges, lock dissolving nuclear material, trucks full of heroin being pushed off the Estonia in the middle of a storm, CIA rendition flights disguised as cargo flights, WW2 mines, Spetsnaz, secret helicopter flights, etc. because I watch Homes under the Hammer and Strictly Come Dancing. Would it surprise you if I said I didn't watch those shows? Or if I had no ******* idea what you're on about?

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove breach of rule 0

 

[Mojo]

You do not 'demand' a medal you are awarded it.

I didn’t say anything about anyone demanding a medal. I asked why the rest of Y64’s crew did not require compensation for flying the “classified” mission. The question was largely rhetorical, and your evident reluctance to address it has now rendered it entirely so.

 

[JesseCuster]

Oh please, 26 helicopters rescued 104 people. He wasn't the only one to fall into the water because of winch problems.

A medal is an award, not a reward.

So why weren't any of the other helicopter crew members given medals to keep them quiet for secretly disappearing crew members? Remember, according to you, Svensson was compensated with a medal for keeping quiet about the skulduggery he was involved in.

 

[Mojo]

Oh please, 26 helicopters rescued 104 people. He wasn't the only one to fall into the water because of winch problems.

A medal is an award, not a reward.

Seriously, do you not remember referring to the medal as “compensation”?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Oh please, 26 helicopters rescued 104 people. He wasn't the only one to fall into the water because of winch problems.



A medal is an award, not a reward.

Nobody claims he got a medal for falling in the water.

What do you think he did, but which the rest of Y64's crew did not do, which warranted his getting a medal but not the others?

 

[JesseCuster]

why did the rest of Y64’s crew, who were certainly only credited with one rescue, not require compensation?

You do not 'demand' a medal you are awarded it.

Do you think that's answer to Mojo's question? You have a thoroughly obnoxious habit of quoting people's posts as if you're answering them and then posting something completely irrelevant.

 

[Vixen]

Where did I put words in your mouth?

You claim there was a secret helicopter mission.

Why were the pilot and other crew ignored when it came to handing out medals?

How would the divers identify bodies? they don't know what the officers looked like. They could only get access to a small part of the ship, they weren't looking for bodies that had floated or washed away.

You claimed that I claimed Svensson went on a special mission to capture the Estonia ship's officials. It is unlikely it was like that at all. It was probably entirely by the by. Because the survivor count had to be reduced by twelve (remember, the original survivors lists showed 149 names, including the senior ship's officers). In addition, the early 0202 logged helicopter flight is mysteriously unrecorded.

The Rockwater divers said the bodies were in good condition, as it is near zero degrees and low salinity. In fact divers went down within days of the ship being located. Of course they would want to locate the captain for a start. Why no public announcement as to what happened to the captain and his officers?

Well, Helsingin Sanomat reported that Avo Piht was alive and that Arvo Andresson, first captain, had 'drowned with his ship'.

Explain that. Somebody obviously did do some identifying.

 

[abaddon]

Leaving aside this incorrigible terminological inexactitude of yours, why did the rest of Y64’s crew, who were certainly only credited with one rescue, not require compensation?

You do not 'demand' a medal you are awarded it.

Mojo made no such claim. That was merely another fantasy you had.