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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Vixen said:
The customs officer saw what he saw. The Swedish Rikstag admitted it smuggled FSU stuff on the Estonia. Albeit ten years later.
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Again, it's Riksdag.

And there was an investigation, linked to earlier in this thread where the conclusion was that it was for the Swedish Defence. No US involvement what so ever.

And it was on two occasion, and not on the night of the accident.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
IF that is the case, and only IF, then yes, being abducted from the Estonia and killed or imprisoned would indeed be a forced disappearance. So what? Is this what happened?
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From Helsingin Sanomat 29.9.1994:

Interviews with the ship's crew will be interviewed today, Thursday. In particular, it is thought that enlightenment will be obtained from Avo Piht , the second master of the ship , who was going to Sweden as a passenger. Arvo Anderson, who commanded the ship, drowned with his ship.
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What happened to Avo Piht?
 
Mojo said:
He thought that smuggling military equipment would make him look like a “'Middle East Peacemaker' extraordinaire”?

Leaving aside the bizarre reasoning, do you have any evidence that these demands were ever made?
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Stop deliberately twisting my words.

Please do be so kind as to look at the Swedish version of Hansards, at the Rikstag's minutes in which Johan Hirschfeld, High Court Judge, confirms smuggling took place in September 1994, as reported by Henriksson the whislteblowing Customs Officer, thanks so awfully.
 
Vixen said:
Stop deliberately twisting my words.

Please do be so kind as to look at the Swedish version of Hansards, at the Rikstag's minutes in which Johan Hirschfeld, High Court Judge, confirms smuggling took place in September 1994, as reported by Henriksson the whislteblowing Customs Officer, thanks so awfully.
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Can you give citations for the specific passages of the minutes that say that Clinton made these demands?


ETA: adding the posts that led to this, just in case Vixen has forgotten what she had claimed:
Vixen said:
Bearing in mind the strict rules that all vehicles had to have a registered owner, and a group of young Estonians were turned away because they didn't realise the car they wanted to board was a company car and they needed to show the car owner's written permission and the EU edict together with previous rules, it illustrates how far Sweden was prepared to break the law to satisfy Clinton's demands.
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Mojo said:
What demands?
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Vixen said:
To smuggle former Soviet Union military and space electronics and equipment to the west.

The President at the time, Bill Clinton, was eager to appear as 'Middle East Peacemaker' extraordinaire. Plus, the CIA, together with MI6 and KSI/MUST were helping Estonia cut ties from the KGB/GRU in helping it to build up its own intelligence forces.
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Mojo said:
He thought that smuggling military equipment would make him look like a “'Middle East Peacemaker' extraordinaire”?

Leaving aside the bizarre reasoning, do you have any evidence that these demands were ever made?
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Vixen said:
From Helsingin Sanomat 29.9.1994:



What happened to Avo Piht?
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1. You've been told about not using news reports from immediately after because they might not be correct in their reporting through no fault of their own. Why do you seem to insist that this newspaper report is accurate in all respects?

2. I'm assuming he drowned. Do you have any actual evidence that he did not?
 
Vixen said:
How would Bildt and Svensson know 'it was a design fault of the bow visor' before (a) the ship had even been located and (b) the bow visor even proven to have fallen off or (c) even located, as of the day of the accident?



Henrik Sillaste would not be privy to the design specifications of the shipyard, Meyer-Werft.



Carl Bildt: "Move along, please! Nothing to see here! Nobody is to blame! It is just a little design fault in the bow visor with the locking system, which we will prove to you in our official accident report! NOW MOVE ALONG! NOTHING TO SEE HERE!!!"
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You still fail to show Bildt making any such claim.
 
Vixen said:
It is a known fact that Alexander Voronin, whose attaché case it was that the divers recovered in Captain Piht's cabin was an ardent Zionist (and why not, as he was a Russian Jew) plus he was a known arms trader.



Jutta Rabe claims to have evidence that the CIA-ordered illicit cargo was intended for Israel.



The Swedish government admitted it smuggled Russian state secrets as cargo on the Estonia during September 1994, despite an EU Law coming into effect 1 Septemberr 1994 re the transport of dangerous goods and chemicals needing a special VAKS licence.



The Swedish customs official who blew the whistle said the aforementioned cargo he was ordered to 'wave through unexamined' was in a hired white Volvo from Ericssons and the car driver never identified.
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You already know the cargo Sweden admitted to bringing over on the Estonia was electronics. Neither dangerous weapons nor hazardous chemicals.

Try again.
 
Vixen said:
Let's face it. The early Italians who are credited with inventing criminology had a simple formula for pinpointing the culprit:

"Cui bono?"


Who would benefit from claiming, 'No-one is to blame?' ('It is 'just a design fault.')


"Cui bono?"


With 500 Swedes including 63 civilian police wiped out, you would think they would be chomping at the bit to bring whomever was responsible to justice.


Unless... ah.
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Early Italians?

You mean Romans?

Cicero is who you are thinking of
 
Actually the Italians were among the first to develop criminology in the 18th century. Cui Bono is Latin though, not Italian.
 
Vixen said:
...Or imprisoned. They might still be alive even.
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Can you devise a storyline where that happens? In the confusion of the rescue before anyone can say for sure if those people were rescued or not you propose that some sinister force managed to find them, separate them from any other survivors and whisk them away to some secret detention where they remain to this day. Who did it? How did they manage it? Most importantly why did they do it? In the same time it took anyone else to react to the sinking with a rescue mission, these hypercompetent villains had worked out who was to blame and decided to silence them and sent in a team to do it without anyone noticing.

I await your explanation with bated breath.
 
Vixen said:
I didn't say he was 'in a cabin' he was fixing the public toilets in the hull deck Deck 0. Where the swimming pool and sauna were.


The lower spaces were watertight. However, to access the engine room, doors had to be opened. So a light would come on and the same signal would be seen on the bridge, that the door had been opened and then properly shut, afterwards.

Estonia had fifteen watertight bulkheads. This ensured its buoyancy.

Why would Sillaste make his way to the Engine Room if he was fixing the passengers toilets (at one in the morning?) unless he could see there was an emergency, such as water on the floor?
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Pumps and tanks and vacuum systems for the domestic services are in the machinery spaces, they are part of the 'engine room'.
Repairs and servicing is done through the night when the systems can be taken off with the least disruption.
Which watertight doors would he need to open and close?
What do the swimming pool and sauna have to do with it?
How do you know they weren't opened and closed? How do you know they were closed at the time?
Why wouldn't he open and close them if needed?
It is more likely that he used access from above, that is the common way of doing it. Most compartments on merchant ships are not watertight from above.
 
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Vixen said:
Thank you. So if that was the case with the missing Estonian crew and staff you admit that would be an illicit act?
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Well, of course it would be.

Just as it would be an illicit act if the Swedish government had poisoned the water supply aboard the Estonia that night. Or if the Swedish government had used trained dolphins to attach limpet mines to the hull of the Estonia that night.

But you see, Vixen..... none of those things actually happened.
 
Vixen said:
Let's face it. The early Italians who are credited with inventing criminology had a simple formula for pinpointing the culprit:

"Cui bono?"


Who would benefit from claiming, 'No-one is to blame?' ('It is 'just a design fault.')


"Cui bono?"


With 500 Swedes including 63 civilian police wiped out, you would think they would be chomping at the bit to bring whomever was responsible to justice.


Unless... ah.
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Oh God, it's incessant. The bollocks just keeps on being spewed out.....

(And what are "civilian police"? I think you mean "civilians employed by the police force". "Civilian police" is an oxymoron. Unsurprised that you don't understand that though...)
 
MarkCorrigan said:
Actually the Italians were among the first to develop criminology in the 18th century. Cui Bono is Latin though, not Italian.
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According to Cicer the originator was Lucius Cassius

As a tribune of the plebs in 137 BC he successfully proposed in the Concilium Plebis the lex Cassia tabellaria (a measure to change the voting system to one of secret ballot). In 127 BC he was consul with Lucius Cornelius Cinna and in 125 BC he was elected censor. He was renowned for severity as a iudex and gained fame by formulating the question "Cui bono?" ("Good for whom?", or "Who benefits?") as a principle of criminal investigation.
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Vixen said:
From Helsingin Sanomat 29.9.1994:







What happened to Avo Piht?
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Can you find any more than secondhand reports about people assuming he was going to be interviewed? Are there no reports at all from anyone who actually saw him? Why would that be?

What did Helsingen Sanomat say, if anything, about the revelation that a man they had previously reported saved was actually presumed drowned?
 
LondonJohn said:
Oh God, it's incessant. The bollocks just keeps on being spewed out.....

(And what are "civilian police"? I think you mean "civilians employed by the police force". "Civilian police" is an oxymoron. Unsurprised that you don't understand that though...)
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Technically, at least in the UK, and workplace jargon notwithstanding, the police are civilians too.
 
Vixen said:
Think about it. There were 70 Stockholm Police on board. Stockholm being the capital I am guessing the elite. Some possibly SäPo, similar to the UK's MI5.
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Vixen said:
The point is, people are trying to downplay the 68 police bods on board as 'just being back office workers, not proper professionals, like what I am by the way'.
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Vixen said:
With 500 Swedes including 63 civilian police wiped out, you would think they would be chomping at the bit to bring whomever was responsible to justice.
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Vixen, you've come a long way from 70 of the elite of Stockholm's finest to 63 'civilian police'. Now lets work on the last little bit. They weren't police offilcers. Remember you own source:

There were 63 civilian employees on board within the Police due to a trade union conference on the merger into a police authority in Stockholm. Five of them were rescued.
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You were confused about the number - strange for an accountant especially a chartered accountant and a 'proper professional' - and thought 'five of them' somehow meant five more. Now that we all agree it was 63, let's work on 'civilian police'. That's a meaningless made-up term in this context but it does indicate some awareness that they weren't regular police officers. They weren't police officers at all. They were 63 'civilian employees' of the police department per your own source [/fx: whoanellie speaking emphatically]
 
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