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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Vixen said:
Oh dear. So if the CIA requested the UK extradite you to the USA without any court papers, you'd think that was 'just a deportation' when snatched whilst innocently strolling down Oxford Street and unceremoniously carted off to a private plane with no chance to speak to a lawyer, family of friends? Or is it only OK if that person is a certain demographic?

In any case, it was not legal no matter what heinous crime you might imagine such person may (or may not!) have committed.

BTW they were NOT 'denied asylum'. Their case was never heard.
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They may not have been lawfully deported but they were deported. They may not have had their asylum claim lawfully denied but it was denied.
 
Vixen said:
Oh dear. So if the CIA requested the UK extradite you to the USA without any court papers, you'd think that was 'just a deportation' when snatched whilst innocently strolling down Oxford Street and unceremoniously carted off to a private plane with no chance to speak to a lawyer, family of friends? Or is it only OK if that person is a certain demographic?
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Oh look, we now have unfounded accusations of racism. Can Godwin’s be far away?
 
Vixen said:
Is that a fact or an opinion.
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Are you building up to making any kind of point, or is this just huffily nitpicking the details of other people's posts as revenge for their having had the temerity to point out the unsupported fabulation in yours?
 
Vixen said:
Those two guys were fit young Estonian athletes. Their fellow athletes died in that disaster. One slept in the car to protect their valuable sports equipment. I am guessing they were up and about. They never once said the car ramp was open. They say they climbed down the car ramp stiffeners, like a ladder, before jumping into the sea when the vessel was on its beams - i.e. already irreversibly sinking - so how could the seawater have got in so voluminously and violently if the ramp was shut?
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Because the ship was on its side.
 
Vixen said:
Those two guys were fit young Estonian athletes. Their fellow athletes died in that disaster. One slept in the car to protect their valuable sports equipment. I am guessing they were up and about. They never once said the car ramp was open. They say they climbed down the car ramp stiffeners, like a ladder, before jumping into the sea when the vessel was on its beams - i.e. already irreversibly sinking - so how could the seawater have got in so voluminously and violently if the ramp was shut?
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Because the bow ramp was not shut. It's rather easy when you know the facts of the case.

In the act of detaching itself completely from the ship, the bow visor - which was connected to the bow ramp - wrenched the bow ramp from its default position. It was now capable of flapping open and shut as the ship lurched in the swell and the extreme pressure of onrushing water pushed against it. The bow was now in no way watertight: it was ingesting huge volumes/masses of seawater each and every time the ship dug into the oncoming swell.

Once the ship was on its side and stationary in the water, there was an equalisation of pressure on either side of the bow ramp and it defaulted back to what looked similar to a closed position. But it wasn't closed.

You don't know what you're talking about, Vixen.
 
Reformed Offlian said:
There are these things called "mistakes." I know for a fact that you are quite familiar with those.

Speaking of mistakes, do you have an actual transcript of the press conference where Stenmark really said that? I'm kind of having some trust issues at the moment wrt your claims about what Swedish officials say at press conferences.



Why wouldn't they? Warrants get issued for people who turn out to be dead all the time. The wheels of bureaucracy and all that.
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From Helsingin Sanomat 1.10.1994

The Estonia Turma Investigation Commission has questioned Captain Piht, said Bengt Erik Stenmark, safety manager at the Swedish Maritime Administration, on Friday.
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HS
 
Reformed Offlian said:
So Kurds = Terrorists?

Racist much?
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Er...

Kurdish ex-commander claims PKK assassinated Palme in 1986
Wed, Apr 29, 1998, 01:00
Peter Murtagh

The 12-year search for the killer of the Swedish prime minister, Olof Palme, took a new twist yesterday when a former commander of the Kurdistan Workers Party of Turkey claimed the organisation was behind the assassination.

Mr Semdin Sakik, captured by Turkish forces on April 13th, was quoted in the newspaper Sabah: "I do not know the details of the assassination of Swedish prime minister Olof Palme," Sabah said he told police. "Nor do I know how the murder was planned or how the decision to kill him was taken. But I know that this murder was committed by the PKK."
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Irish Times

People here really do not know their current affairs. In the 1990's there was a lot of conflict in the Middle East and the western powers were certainly behind backing one group or another, not just the Russia-Iran alliance and at its centre was US President Bill Clinton (see current Netflix series 'The Girl from Oslo' for an insight into the conflicts). So to mention Kurds or Zionist Jews is a factual statement and appropriate to the background information, should an act of terrorism be behind the sinking of the Estonia. It is not such a tall story as this is what terrorist do.

Heaven forfend if anyone dares call you a racist though.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
Wow, an accusation of racism. Lovely. How do you know what my ethnicity is? What if I was from an Egyptian-British family? Why are you making insinuations against me of racism when you know nothing of me? Isn't it you who keeps accusing others of being rude to you? Amazing double standards you've got there.

To answer the question, if I were an asylum seeker who was being recommended as having my application turned down and was taken and deported, I would call it a deportation, yes. Not a legal one, but a deportation nonetheless. Again, you've missed the point of my post, these people were not disappeared. If they had been disappeared they would have, you know, disappeared.


Who said anything about crimes? I quite agree it was an illegal deportation, but it was not them being disappeared. There's a rather big difference between the two things. You claimed that Sweden had "disappeared" people. This is very much not that. It's reprehensible and illegal certainly, but that doesn't make it a disappearance.


They were deported and they would likely have been denied asylum anyway because 1. the security services had advised that they be denied on security grounds and 2. One of them was claiming illegally using a false passport.

Again, I'm not claiming that this was a perfectly ok thing to have happened, I'm simply stating that they were not "disappeared".
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For someone who claims to have actually made a special study of a region that is actually outside of his own shores - unlike most Brits or Americans who are only interested in 'Home News - I am shocked that:

  • you have never heard of the Rome Treaty 1998 in Criminal Law
  • you have no idea as to the difference between deportation and disappearance
  • you make the assumption that the USA is a natural sovereign state of Sweden and thus can order them about
  • If someone is 'disappeared' it must mean their application as an asylum seeker was denied.
  • you angrily accuse anyone trying to correct you as to the true facts of calling you a racist


Shame on you, 'Mark Corrigan', shame on you. Are you SURE you studied Eastern Europe and the KGB...? Then you would be more familiar with the various political alliances and current issues of the day surrounding the Estonia 'accident'.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Are you building up to making any kind of point, or is this just huffily nitpicking the details of other people's posts as revenge for their having had the temerity to point out the unsupported fabulation in yours?
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The point is, people are trying to downplay the 68 police bods on board as 'just being back office workers, not proper professionals, like what I am by the way'.
 
Vixen said:
The point is, people are trying to downplay the 68 police bods on board as 'just being back office workers, not proper professionals, like what I am by the way'.
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No, that is not what's happening. What we are showing is how your earlier statement isn't based on facts:

Vixen said:
Think about it. There were 70 Stockholm Police on board. Stockholm being the capital I am guessing the elite. Some possibly SäPo, similar to the UK's MI5.
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Vixen said:
Er...



Irish Times



People here really do not know their current affairs. In the 1990's there was a lot of conflict in the Middle East and the western powers were certainly behind backing one group or another, not just the Russia-Iran alliance and at its centre was US President Bill Clinton (see current Netflix series 'The Girl from Oslo' for an insight into the conflicts). So to mention Kurds or Zionist Jews is a factual statement and appropriate to the background information, should an act of terrorism be behind the sinking of the Estonia. It is not such a tall story as this is what terrorist do.



Heaven forfend if anyone dares call you a racist though.
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You have a report in the Irish Times of a report in a Turkish paper(?) of a captured PKK commander who allegedly told his Turkish interrogators the PKK killed Palme. Did he also admit they killed JFK and burned the Reichstag?

What motive could Kurdish separatists have for singling out the Swedish PM for murder?
 
LondonJohn said:
Because the bow ramp was not shut. It's rather easy when you know the facts of the case.

In the act of detaching itself completely from the ship, the bow visor - which was connected to the bow ramp - wrenched the bow ramp from its default position. It was now capable of flapping open and shut as the ship lurched in the swell and the extreme pressure of onrushing water pushed against it. The bow was now in no way watertight: it was ingesting huge volumes/masses of seawater each and every time the ship dug into the oncoming swell.

Once the ship was on its side and stationary in the water, there was an equalisation of pressure on either side of the bow ramp and it defaulted back to what looked similar to a closed position. But it wasn't closed.

You don't know what you're talking about, Vixen.
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Er, that was a story made up by Carl Bildt and his Defence Chief Emil Svensson on Day One, remember...?
 
Vixen said:
Citation, please.
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Of course I haven't got a citation. The ramp was not available for comment.

I presented a rather obvious possibility; that the ramp which fell open when its fixings were broken would just as easily have swung shut when the ship was no longer upright. I asked if you had any reason to believe it couldn't do so and I infer that you do not.
 
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