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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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Vixen said:
I was not looking for 'would, could, or should'. I was asking for factual information, not 'opinion'.

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But when it comes to how Bildt received information you provide your own "would, could, should" opinion which somehow trumps the recorded facts.

No sale.
 
Vixen said:
In the UK, the biggest union is Unison, who have their own building in Euston Road and their own workforce. So I just wanted to clarify whether these employees were trade union employees or police employees. People here are saying the group of 68 on the Estonia 'were not really police'.
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I know unions have their own staff but ordinary members are not union employees. Nobody here is saying they were not police employees, they are saying they were not police officers. It beggars belief that you still fail to understand this.
 
There were 63 civilian employees on board within the Police due to a trade union conference on the merger into a police authority in Stockholm. Five of them were rescued.


<snip>

Both Claes Cassel and Mikael Sjöstedt lost several station colleagues in the disaster. They carry memories that were immortalized by photographers and spread around the world.

<snip>

She was 32 years old and a civilian employee of the Police at the passport unit at Norr Mälarstrand. In addition, Karin Svenning spent a lot of time on union work for ST within the police and would eventually become the organization's chairman. It was because of her later engagement that she was in Estonia that fateful night.
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Vixen, what do you think 'civilian' means in the quote you provided? It's right there in your source!
 
Here_to_learn said:
Right, let's see what your source really say:

Page 28 is about "the Governments work during the afternoon and evening of sep 28th"

It starts off with the information that right efter 12 noon, Carl Bildt takes a flight to Turku. On the flight Bildt gets briefed on experiences from the Jan Heweliusz accident, specifically with regards to expected reactions from family members.

It is also mentioned that during the flight TT (A Swedish news agency) had a flash that "a crew from M/S Estonia claims having seen the bow port open"

On Page 29 we learn that that media is waiting at the Turku airport, where Bildt explains that an Accident Investigation will take place, and that "Statens haverikommision" is the Swedish government agency that will take part. He makes a point to describe that is important to find out what happened, so be able to avoid a something like this happening again.

After that the three PMs meet and get briefed, and then had a private discussion to decide on responsibilities.

After that the PMs met with survivors at the hospital. Bildt meets with three Swedish passengers, while Mart Laar meets with three Estonian crew that describes that a wave had lifted the bow visor from below.

After this there was a press conference, and the report focus on the "recovery" at this stage.

Finally on page 29, continuing on to P30 is the following text:



My translation:

"Prime Minister Carl Bildt wants an investigation into the construction of passenger ferries

From the airport before the return journey, Prime Minister Carl Bildt calls Mats Odell. The Prime Minister wants it to be investigated whether other passenger ferries in operation are designed in the same way as Estonia. The information from the surviving crew members, that the bow gate is "lifted from below" may indicate a design defect. The Minister of Communications is instructed to contact the Swedish Maritime Administration. Then Prime Minister Carl Bildt calls Hans Laidwa at the shipping company and informs about this measure."

The rest of p30 is about recovery of bodies and of the wreck, as well as discussion on the legal aspect.

No press release
No Bildt announcing the cause of the accident
No Bildt declaring the cause of the accident

Now, those that are prone to self-hurt may want to see how the "German group of experts" spin this. Then go to: https://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/chapter21/21-0.html

If you want to see how Anders Björkman spins it you can read at: https://heiwaco.com/visoronbottom.htm

Vixens spin can be read in this thread.
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The Estonia Ferry Disaster group are authentic in trying to sort the wheat from the chaff. The second link, I believe is just a disinformation agent. These are people who deliberately weave 'conspiracy theories' to throw people of the scent and have anyone who questions the 'official version' brushed off as a CT anti-vaxxer, anti- this that and the other.
 
Vixen said:
Bengt Stenmark, Minister of Transport told a press conference Avo Piht had been interviewed in Turku. How do you reconcile that?



Why would the police issue an Interpol arrest warrant without satisfying themselves Piht was a survivor?



As 90% of people on Estonia died why would they begin to make that assumption? Unless of course Piht was listed as a survivor and was not just the product of rumour.
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It might be interesting to hear what Stenmark said when challenged about having made the claim. But perhaps we should begin by establishing what he said in the first place. Do you have a dependable source for your claim he said this.

I see no reason that an arrest warrant cannot be issued for a missing person of interest without proof that the missing individual is still alive. If you can show a reason by all means present it.

If Piht was listed, rather than just rumoured, as a survivor then please indicate which list has his name. Show us the list.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
That can't be right.

Vixen has told us that none of the survivors spoke a word to anyone when they were rescued.
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Crew member Sillaste was the only one who had been interrogated in the presence of Supo and Säpo as of that time.

See JAIC

6.2.4 Summary of testimonies by the system engineer

The system engineer was interrogated five times.

1. 28 September 1994 in Turku by the Finnish police.


Sillaste is the ONLY one interviewed as of 28 September 1994, whilst the Three Prime Ministers were there.

The JAIC was formed later that afternoon, after the three flew to Helsinki from Turku (a 35-minute flight).


The stuff about the prime ministers chatting to other survivors in hospital is just the usual 'kissing babies' political gesture and not a proper interview. 'How are you?' 'All right?' 'Jolly good', and so on and so forth.

Learn to discern the important information from the fillers.
 
Vixen said:
Crew member Sillaste was the only one who had been interrogated in the presence of Supo and Säpo as of that time.



See JAIC



6.2.4 Summary of testimonies by the system engineer



The system engineer was interrogated five times.



1. 28 September 1994 in Turku by the Finnish police.





Sillaste is the ONLY one interviewed as of 28 September 1994, whilst the Three Prime Ministers were there.



The JAIC was formed later that afternoon, after the three flew to Helsinki from Turku (a 35-minute flight).





The stuff about the prime ministers chatting to other survivors in hospital is just the usual 'kissing babies' political gesture and not a proper interview. 'How are you?' 'All right?' 'Jolly good', and so on and so forth.



Learn to discern the important information from the fillers.
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Yet you claim Bildt got his theory from the two guys who climbed down the exposed car ramp.

So when did Bildt 'interrogate' those guys? And when did Bildt announce his 'theory'? To remind you, you have still not shown that your claim, repeated dozens of times, that Bildt told the press the visor caused the disaster within 16 hours, ever actually happened at all.
 
Vixen said:
Is that absolute fact for all of them, or an opinion?
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That would be a fact. What is your weird obsession with labelling things as "opinion"?

They were not police officers, they were police administrators, as your own source said.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
They weren't disappeared, they were deported back to Egypt. Yes, the decision was a controversial one but they weren't "disappeared" they were deported back home. They didn't go missing at any point.

Further, the issues with the deportation were to do with how they would be treated when they went back to Egypt, and the Swedes only allowed the deportation to go ahead once it had received assurances that they would be treated humanely. They were arrested on the street, yes, but much like anyone who was being deported would be.

Your imagination is running away with you again.
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You just do not get it. For a nation to deport someone, it has to go through the courts, and as agreed by the Rome Treaty (Criminal Law). Calling someone snatched off the street and onto a privately chartered plane a 'deportation' just to sound warm and cuddly demonstrates a wilful ignorance of what the issue is about.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
How is "the media often describes people who work at an investment bank but aren't actually investment bankers incorrectly as such" snobbery?

Would you consider it fair if the BBC referred to a back office functionary of your accountancy firm as a chartered accountant?
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I am defined as such by my professional bodies, regardless of whom I work for.
 
Steve said:
I understand Vixen's (erroneous) point to be that is actually makes him a liar for the PM.
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Yes, Lehtola, a top lawyer, was loyal to the Swedish government aim to the end.

However, once it was over and the JAIC disbanded, he asked the Finnish SYKE guys who were clearing the waters of oil whether they could test the wreck for radioactivity for him.

Lehtola was not a stupid man.
 
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