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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

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That would be Harri Ruotsalainen, who suspects that whoever was steering the ship, deliberately drove it hard into the waves as they wanted it to sink. From being fifteen minutes behind when it left Tallinn, by the time it sank it had gained over an hour on Silja Europa and Mariella., and strangely, neither of them nor Turku MRCC could quite capture Estonia on the sonar.

Finnish JAIC employee Harri Ruotsalainen stated that Estonia shortly after departure from Tallinn at 19:15 on On September 28, 1994, after crossing the Estonian island of Dagö, sped along at top speed but then went down to a speed of 6/ 5 knots, opened the car ramp in the back to throw one or two trucks with illicit cargo into the sea, and then tried to return to the spot to sink the vessel on top of it. However, there is a significant debris field about five hundred metres from the wreck, which he thinks could be the trucks. Problem is, looks like Sweden has poured rocks and concrete over them. Ostensibly to form a base for their proposed concrete cover.

Ruotsalainen saw the sonar images as one of the appointed interns for the dive at the time.

And yet current high resolution sonar images show nothing of a sort within 500 meters of the wreck, or did you not look at the report you posted.

Also, the folks on the bridge sailing the Estonia at flank speed would be the command crew.
 
And you still haven't shown any source for this. Remember, you claimed that Bildt put out a press release on day one, stating that the bow visor was the cause. You still haven't shown the press release, or in fact anyone that mentions it. Wouldn't you expect HS to report that?

What interview? When? Citation needed.

And remember, I already shared sources that specifically say that Bildt deferred to the JAIC:

Analysgruppen, SOU 1998:132 Örn commission report, page 28 -30

https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokumen...ga-utredningar/sou-1998-132-d1_GMB3132d1/html

Bildt based his theory on the testimony of those two Estonian athletes who said they climbed down the car ramp.

The other citation is a Hesari report dated 29 Sept 1994:

Kari Lehtola, chairman of the Major Accident Investigation Planning Board, who is leading the investigation with interim powers

Lehtola is the appointed JAIC spokesperson. He is speaking on behalf of Bildt, whose idea it was to go for the bow visor as the cause rather than treat it as a possibility (for example, the effect of some other incident.) Based purely on the idea the two guys climbed down the car ramp (but remember there is also a ramp at the stern) and because third or fourth engineer Sillaste saw water coming in at the sides of the car ramp on his monitor.

However, how does that prove anything if 150 tonnes of water swirled around between the car ramp and the bow visor on every journey anyway?
 
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No, that is not true. Their destination was Stockholm. They were on a conference trip, having the conference on board M/S Estonia.

During the stop in Tallin, some went shopping, and some visited with colleagues, according to a book that couldn't even get the union correct.

So tell me, are you saying that these guys had nothing to do with the police but were simply working for a trade union?
 
Bildt based his theory on the testimony of those two Estonian athletes who said they climbed down the car ramp.

Oh really? And when did Bildt formally interview them? (That is the vital criterion by which we can accept that he knows their story, right?)

Was it less than 16 hours after the disaster?
 
Here's a picture of those two car deck doors, which the JAIC believe would likely have been smashed to smithereens due to the incredible force of the ingression of water. Shot taken September 2021 by Margus Kurm's crew, some 27 years later. So much for the force of the sea.

Postimees


?????????

My post had nothing whatsoever to do with that.

But since you bizarrely chose this as your "response", it's time to point out once again that there were many additional ways (other than these doors) for water to have progressed from the vehicle deck down to the lower decks.

And it's also stupid for Kurm (and you) to be claiming that these doors somehow ought to have been "smashed to smithereens" (your hyperbole) by water pressure. Because the actual pressure of water (which is an important difference from the mass of water) on the vehicle deck would have been very low. There would never have been more than around 10m head of water pressing on those doors (equivalent to 2atm - something that a door of that type would easily have been able to handle). That would have occurred when the ship was at something like a 40-50-degree list. But once the ship had listed so far to starboard that it was closing in on lying beam-on in the water, there would have been a pressure equalisation on either side of those doors owing to the equivalent water column now present on the other side of the doors.

But yeah.... other than that....... :rolleyes:
 
Here's a picture of those two car deck doors, which the JAIC believe would likely have been smashed to smithereens due to the incredible force of the ingression of water. Shot taken September 2021 by Margus Kurm's crew, some 27 years later. So much for the force of the sea.

Postimees

Here's the problem. The JAIC doesn't say the doors were open.

It says:

Capsize

The ESTONIA capsized due to large amounts of water entering the car deck,1oss of stability and subsequent flooding of the accommodation decks.

The full-width open car deck contributed to the rapid increase in the list. The turn to port - exposing first the open bow and later the listed side to the waves - shortened the time until the first windows and doors broke, which led to progressive flooding and sinking.

The design arrangement of bow ramp engaging with visor through the boxlike housing had crucial consequences for the development of the accident.

Which is accurate. Once the water had access to the interior it was over.

Why have you ignored the fact the MS Estonia was never designed for open-ocean sailing, only coastal sailing.

Why have you ignored this from the report?

The ESTONIA had experienced sea conditions of equivalent severity to those on the night of the accident only once or twice before on a voyage from Tallinn to Stockholm. The probability of the vessel encountering heavy bow seas in her earlier service had been very small. Thus, the failure occurred in what were most likely the worst wave load conditions she ever encountered.

And then there is this key fact from the JAIC:

The visor attachments were not designed according to realistic design assumptions, including the design load level, load distribution to the attachments and the failure mode. The attachments were constructed with less strength than the simplistic calculations required. It is believed that this discrepancy was due to lack of sufficiently detailed manufacturing and installation instructions for certain parts of the devices.
The bowvisor locking devices should have been several times stronger to have a reasonable level of safety for the regular traffic between Tallinn and Stockholm. At the time of the ESTONIA's construction, despite scattered information, the industry's general experience of hydrodynamic loads on large ship structures was limited, and the design procedures for bow doors were not well-established.

From the first page, your entire premise is based on assumptions, not facts. You implied that the Estonia regularly sailed in rough seas equal to the night of the sinking, when the truth is the ship had only sailed in similar conditions only twice.

The water didn't flood the decks through open doors, it came in through ventilation ducts as the upper decks flooded.

You are metaphorically in over your head on this one.
 
Hey, another one-line brush-off.

Your views on how ships capsize and/or sink is exactly that of Anders Björkman, and of no one else. No one gets it wrong quite the same way as he does. You've made that belief a central pillar of your argument in this thread. You've been citing him as an authority for your views on ship stability since Day One. You've been defending him as an authority. Of course now you're in the denial stage because you've failed to rehabilitate him -- once again. But this too has happened several times in this thread. As I said, we'd like to get to the bottom of this. We'd like to have impeached Björkman as an authority and have that stay the case from now on. Will you agree to that? No more citing him as a source? No more tacitly borrowing his arguments?

Have you given any thought to the questions I asked you previously, characterized as a "pop quiz" to see how much you understood the lecture on ship stability? Have you figured out the mathematical effects of flooding? Can you actually do the math, instead of dragging us involuntarily down Memory Lane?

Arild Winge a naval expert who attended the Jan Heweliusz disaster and the Estonia, together with the captains of Silja Europa and Viking Mariella, all said they were surprised that Estonia had completely vanished, for they were expecting to see it semi-submerged like the Jan Heweliusz, so no, it is not the brainchild of any one person.

Before we can make the assumption that huge amounts of seawater flooded into the car deck via a car ramp that to all intents and purposes has been described as shut, even by Sillaste and the two Estonian athletes, and even the JAIC themselves claim there was just a gap of 40cm at the top, thus not allowing divers to enter by that aperture, we need to be sure that this is what caused the vessel to sink so rapidly.
 
That would be Harri Ruotsalainen, who suspects that whoever was steering the ship, deliberately drove it hard into the waves as they wanted it to sink. From being fifteen minutes behind when it left Tallinn, by the time it sank it had gained over an hour on Silja Europa and Mariella., and strangely, neither of them nor Turku MRCC could quite capture Estonia on the sonar.

Finnish JAIC employee Harri Ruotsalainen stated that Estonia shortly after departure from Tallinn at 19:15 on On September 28, 1994, after crossing the Estonian island of Dagö, sped along at top speed but then went down to a speed of 6/ 5 knots, opened the car ramp in the back to throw one or two trucks with illicit cargo into the sea, and then tried to return to the spot to sink the vessel on top of it. However, there is a significant debris field about five hundred metres from the wreck, which he thinks could be the trucks. Problem is, looks like Sweden has poured rocks and concrete over them. Ostensibly to form a base for their proposed concrete cover.

Ruotsalainen saw the sonar images as one of the appointed interns for the dive at the time.


Ah, so the intern figured out what really happened!

(Not to mention that his ludicrous contention of someone at the helm nefariously navigating the ship such as to deliberately place it into maximal danger. All without anyone else on the bridge saying "hey, what are you doing?". Or maybe they were all in on this crazy conspiracy as well....)
 
Please do not put words in my mouth, or twist what I said.

You cited to the Rome Statue, claiming that the fact they were criminalizing enforced disappearances as evidence that someone, namely Sweden, had been doing that in the past. That was your claim, despite it making no logical sense.

You wrote
That's what happened two to Egyptian suspected terrorists in Sweden in 2002 IIRC. They were 'disappeared'.

The fact there is a Treaty 1988 (Criminal Law) that forbids the disappearance of suspects, must mean that it had been happening.
in the context of a hypothesis that "missing" officers from the MS Estonia had been spirited away.

If you've now come to your senses and agree that the Rome Statute provides no evidence that any particular party had engaged in enforced disappearances, why did you cite it? It seems you were scrambling for evidence that Sweden had "disappeared" passengers from MS Estonia. Does your citation of the Rome Statue have anything to do with that claim?
 
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It shows they were meeting with 'colleagues' in Tallinn, which was their destination.


No. It shows they were taking time while in Tallinn to visit their opposites who were working as administrators within the Estonian Police. Nothing more or less than that.
 
... the JAIC themselves claim there was just a gap of 40cm at the top, thus not allowing divers to enter by that aperture

That was when the ship was lying on the seabed at a list of over 90° which would tend to cause the ramp to swing shut.

The JAIC say during the accident the ramp was torn fully open. You know this.
 
I knew someone who worked for the Home Office (government department) and their building and even canteen, was exactly the same one as the police training college in Hendon. Same access to computerised criminal records. They were a Civil Servant and even did stuff for GCHQ.

Someone being in the executive arm doesn't mean there is no connection.

If these guys were just working for a trade union, I am not sure why they'd need to meet 'foreign affairs' people in another country of a different nationality and taking three working days out.


Please stop with this nonsense.

They were having a conference aboard the ship. But since the ship docked in Tallinn for several hours, they took the opportunity to look around Tallinn. And since for some of them, their job involved liaison with counterparts in Tallinn, they paid those counterparts a courtesy visit while they were there.

There's nothing more to it than that. Your dogged refusal to budge from your sensationalist and utterly bogus claims is, I'm afraid, symptomatic of your approach to pretty much every issue related to this disaster. You're wrong, but you appear either to a) not even know how/why you're wrong, or b) refuse to accept that you might be wrong. It's astonishing to observe.
 
Yes, it does. Does the treaty provide evidence that Sweden at any time "disappeared" people at the request of the CIA?

The European Court of International Law and the European Court of Human Rights re Sweden the Rome Statute and the Human Rights Act (Torture)

UN human rights treaty bodies

The Committee against Torture was surprisingly cautious about third party responsibility in its own rendition case, Agiza v. Sweden (Communication No. 233/2003, Decision of 20 May 2005). The case concerned the rendition by the CIA of an Egyptian individual from Sweden to Egypt. Before the CAT, the case was framed as one about non-refoulement (article 3 of the Convention against Torture), and the question of Agiza’s treatment by CIA agents on Swedish soil was not addressed. Keeping quiet about the USA and when assessing only the non-refoulement issue, the CAT also steered clear from assessing any action by Egypt, restricting itself only to what was foreseeable for Sweden at the time of removal:

9.4 The Committee noted that Egypt has not made the declaration provided for under article 22 recognizing the Committee’s competence to consider individual complaints against that State party. The Committee observed, however, that a finding, as requested by the complainant, that torture had in fact occurred following the complainant’s removal to Egypt (see paragraph 5.8), would amount to a conclusion that Egypt, a State party to the Convention, had breached its obligations under the Convention without it having had an opportunity to present its position. This separate claim against Egypt was thus inadmissible ratione personae.

The companion case of Alzery v. Sweden was subsequently decided by the Human Rights Committee (Communication No. 1416/2005, Views of 25 October 2006), on the basis of richer factual information and including a separate complaint about ill-treatment on Swedish soil prior to the complainant’s removal. The Committee made explicit references to the United States and the CIA in the narrative parts of its Views but not in its conclusion. Sweden was found complicit in such treatment by foreign agents on Swedish soil that triggered a violation of ICCPR article 7 by itself:

11.6 On the issue of the treatment by the author at Bromma airport, the Committee must first assess whether the treatment suffered by the author at the hands of foreign agents is properly imputable to the State party under the terms of the Covenant and under applicable rules of State responsibility. The Committee notes that, at a minimum, a State party is responsible for acts of foreign officials exercising acts of sovereign authority on its territory, if such acts are performed with the consent or acquiescence of the State party (see also article 1 of the Convention against Torture). It follows that the acts complained of, which occurred in the course of performance of official functions in the presence of the State party’s officials and within the State party’s jurisdiction, are properly imputable to the State party itself, in addition to the State on whose behalf the officials were engaged…
EJIL Talk

Human Rights Library

See also: Nuremburg Academy re Ahmed Agiza and Mohamed Alzery by the Swedish government with close ... 1998 (i.e. Article 7 of the ICC Rome Statute) defining crimes against humanity

NOTA BENE: A treaty does not deal with individual cases.

But you knew that.
 
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So were these people all working for the police administrative offices in Stockholm or were they just trade unionists? In the UK there'd be one general union - perhaps two - that civil servants can join but it wouldn't be limited to any one particular department, just as long as you are in the civil service, or with teacher's unions, it doesn't matter where you teach, if you worked for a teacher's union, that union would deal with teachers only, but nationwide.


But the people who administer the teachers' unions are not teachers.

How the hell can this be so difficult for you to understand/accept?
 
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