Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Andy_Ross]

No it isn't. The Aftonbladet and Helsingin Sanomat - and also the transcript of the Mayday exchange with Mariella, has the Swedish helicopters taking off just after 02:00, and this fits the time line of Turku MRCC finally getting through to Stockholm MRCC and their ringing Turku MRCC.

Yet JAIC has Y64 and Y74 not arriving until circa 05:00 or 06:00.

First helicopter involved was the stand-by helicopter OH-HVG, taking off at 0230 hrs from Turku and arriving at the scene of the accident at 0305 hrs.

Up to 0600 hrs four rescue helicopters operated in the area and four more arrived at dawn, somewhat before 0600 hrs.
At the break of day the operational possibilities for the helicopters improved, and liferafts were found more quickly and easily than in the dark using searchlights.
The last survivors were found at about 0900 hrs. At about 1000 hrs the helicopters were instructed to lift also bodies observed and reported by the vessels.
On the same day, by 1330 hrs, all liferafts had been examined. After this, seven Finnish and three Swedish helicopters remained at the scene. The others were released from duty to return to their bases.
On the day of the accident, 26 helicopters participated in the rescue operation and search for bodies. Of these eight came from Finland, 14 from Sweden, one from Estonia, two from Denmark and one from the Russian Federation. In addition five helicopters served as logistical support, e.g. by transporting first-aid personnel.
The helicopters continued their search and retrieval until dark, when the search was broken off and they returned to their bases. The helicopters operated in the area for about 15 hours, from 0305 hrs to 1800 hrs.

6 helicopters were already at the scene when Y 64 arrived.

It took off from Berga at 0445 hrs, picked up a physician and a nurse from Huddinge Hospital and arrived at the scene of the accident at 0552 hrs.

Q 99, the stand-by helicopter at Ronneby could have been the first there but when it received the alarm it was already on another rescue mission where it rescued two survivors from a fishing vessel.
This mission finished at 0238 hrs. Q 99 landed at 0325 hrs at Visby for refuelling and maintenance of equipment and took off from Visby at 0355 hrs, reaching the scene of the accident at 0440 hrs.

 

[Vixen]

And presumably not, if that wasn't the case. There doesn't actually appear to be a case.

Do those who advance the theory propose any explanation for why these people might have been seized?

The evidence is that these people were listed as survivors. There is even supposedly a radio interview with the pilot of Y64 telling the interviewer he was just taking Piht to Huddinge.

On 28.09.94 in the morning the news of the Estonian Radio, Estonian TV, Finnish TV announced the rescue of 'A. Piht'. A Swedish helicopter had rescued 'A. Piht'.

Piht is mentioned in the list of survivors of Estlines in Tallinn on September 28, 1994 at number 13 at 13.03 at Turku University Central Hospital (TYKS). On the same day, Turku's maritime director Erik Mörd said that Avo Piht had been transported by car to Helsinki. 28.9. Estonian radio station KuKu sent an interview to a helicopter crew member. Apparently a Swedish helicopter Y-64, the interviewee, said he had rescued Avo Pihti. When Spiegel TV's Jutta Rabe tried to get an interview tape, the director of the radio station supposedly told her that the tape had already been seized by the Estonian security police.

Two days later, Reuters interviewed Bengt Stenmark, head of the Department of Water Transport Safety. He also said he had been in contact with Piht after the accident. On October 1, 1994, the Estonian Embassy filed a protest with the Swedish Foreign Ministry over access to information about Estonian passengers. Swedish police had also blocked the Estonian consul from visiting the survivors at Södersjukhus Hospital. 1.10.1994

On October 16, 1994, Aftonbladet said the only surviving officer was the ship's doctor, Viktor Bogdanov, 42. Crew member Anders Vikner had previously called Bogdanov's wife and assured him, "Viktor has been saved and is here with me." But Viktor never came home and has disappeared into the ether. Vikner apologised and claimed to have made a mistake, in his turmoil. Vamo said her husband had always been very silent about his work, it was as if he had possessed a secret that was heavy to carry.

It was assumed that Chief Engineer and the first mechanic, Lembit Leiger, was originally taken to Huddinge Hospital in Sweden. Commissioner Stridlund told Leigner's relatives that after hospitalization, Leiger would be sent to Tallinn by plane. When the family arrived to pick up Leiger, he was not on the plane. Since then, Leiger, too has disappeared.

Unfortunate errors? How come there has never been any explanation at all as to how such errors could have happened? Silence. Blank. No mention in the JAIC.

 

[Vixen]

And third, can you provide a proper citation for the “Treaty 1988 (Criminal Law)”?

Oh, what’s the use…

I gave you the link. Stop pretending you cannot comprehend it.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The evidence is that these people were listed as survivors. There is even supposedly a radio interview with the pilot of Y64 telling the interviewer he was just taking Piht to Huddinge.

On 28.09.94 in the morning the news of the Estonian Radio, Estonian TV, Finnish TV announced the rescue of 'A. Piht'. A Swedish helicopter had rescued 'A. Piht'.

Piht is mentioned in the list of survivors of Estlines in Tallinn on September 28, 1994 at number 13 at 13.03 at Turku University Central Hospital (TYKS). On the same day, Turku's maritime director Erik Mörd said that Avo Piht had been transported by car to Helsinki. 28.9. Estonian radio station KuKu sent an interview to a helicopter crew member. Apparently a Swedish helicopter Y-64, the interviewee, said he had rescued Avo Pihti. When Spiegel TV's Jutta Rabe tried to get an interview tape, the director of the radio station supposedly told her that the tape had already been seized by the Estonian security police.

Two days later, Reuters interviewed Bengt Stenmark, head of the Department of Water Transport Safety. He also said he had been in contact with Piht after the accident. On October 1, 1994, the Estonian Embassy filed a protest with the Swedish Foreign Ministry over access to information about Estonian passengers. Swedish police had also blocked the Estonian consul from visiting the survivors at Södersjukhus Hospital. 1.10.1994

On October 16, 1994, Aftonbladet said the only surviving officer was the ship's doctor, Viktor Bogdanov, 42. Crew member Anders Vikner had previously called Bogdanov's wife and assured him, "Viktor has been saved and is here with me." But Viktor never came home and has disappeared into the ether. Vikner apologised and claimed to have made a mistake, in his turmoil. Vamo said her husband had always been very silent about his work, it was as if he had possessed a secret that was heavy to carry.

It was assumed that Chief Engineer and the first mechanic, Lembit Leiger, was originally taken to Huddinge Hospital in Sweden. Commissioner Stridlund told Leigner's relatives that after hospitalization, Leiger would be sent to Tallinn by plane. When the family arrived to pick up Leiger, he was not on the plane. Since then, Leiger, too has disappeared.

Unfortunate errors? How come there has never been any explanation at all as to how such errors could have happened? Silence. Blank. No mention in the JAIC.

What did it have to do with the JAIC?

 

[Vixen]

This may come as a shock, but Vixen has it wrong.

Sweden didn't "disappear" anyone. This a lie, easily verified as a lie with a minimum amount of work.

Sweden -POST 9-11 - like many European countries, has developed a shorter fuse when it comes to Middle Eastern males. In the case Vixen is bolloxing, two Egyptian men were "forcibly" returned to Egypt:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde12/006/2002/en/

Depending on which side is covering the case, the men were either dissidents claiming asylum in Sweden, or members of a "violent extremist group".

Either way, they were no "disappeared", just sent back to Egypt where they were probably beaten while in jail:

https://www.therenditionproject.org.uk/prisoners/agiza_elzery.html

And everyone's mad at Sweden...not Egypt.

There are two important key points to be made.

1. 2002 is not 1994. Actions post-911 by the US and European countries cannot be compared with pre-911 laws, procedures, or mind-sets (unless you're a moron).

2. This has nothing to do with the MS Estonia's bow-visor getting knocked off in rough seas due to poor seamanship and judgement by the ship's command.

That is untrue. The two men were registered asylum seekers. They had lawyers representing them. Egypt via the CIA requested their extradition as being suspected of being Al Quaeda supporters. The salient point is that the two guys were snatched off the street, one from a telephone booth in the middle of a conversation with his lawyer, marched to the airport and deported, where they disppeared in Eyptian system and claimed to have been tortured. Whether or not these men were despicable human beings, it breach the Rome Treaty in that they were 'disappeared' and no-one knew where the were, including their lawyers, for a long time.

Likewise, if the senior Estonian crew manning the Estonia that night were carted off elsewhere because the accident itself had to be classified* as top secret because of the involvement of governments and spy agencies, then that, too, would be a breach of the Treaty as technically everybody is entitled to go through due process and not be vanished.

*When I was on jury service waiting to be called, an usher told us that there was a top secret hearing going on at the time at the court and because it involved national security, no public were allowed and all reporting banned.

 

[Steve]

What did it have to do with the JAIC?

The JAIC sees all, knows all, and only reports what they are told to report by one particular individual who was in the Swedish government +/- 20 years ago.

 

[Vixen]

So the captain and officers were taken away secretly by the USA because they were terrorists?

As many as 1,000 were killed, remember.

 

[Andy_Ross]

As many as 1,000 were killed, remember.

Yes but how does that make the officers terrorists?
Did they plant the bombs that sank the ship?
That would make more sense that secret ninja squirrel Russians doing it

 

[Vixen]

He thinks the nuclear bombs are a hoax, he thinks the Japanese were 'in on it' with the USA.
He's mad.

That is very different from the argument Spitfire presents.

 

[Vixen]

Then why are you defending him? Why are you citing him as an authority you expect us all to respect? If you are going to do that, and to be honest about it, then you should take an interest in him. You say he's fully qualified in his profession and that his opinion on the matter of MS Estonia should be viewed as an expert opinion. If he's who you say he is, then you should be able to find others similarly qualified who endorse his claims.

I am not interested in the cult of personality.

 

[Vixen]

First helicopter involved was the stand-by helicopter OH-HVG, taking off at 0230 hrs from Turku and arriving at the scene of the accident at 0305 hrs.

Up to 0600 hrs four rescue helicopters operated in the area and four more arrived at dawn, somewhat before 0600 hrs.
At the break of day the operational possibilities for the helicopters improved, and liferafts were found more quickly and easily than in the dark using searchlights.
The last survivors were found at about 0900 hrs. At about 1000 hrs the helicopters were instructed to lift also bodies observed and reported by the vessels.
On the same day, by 1330 hrs, all liferafts had been examined. After this, seven Finnish and three Swedish helicopters remained at the scene. The others were released from duty to return to their bases.
On the day of the accident, 26 helicopters participated in the rescue operation and search for bodies. Of these eight came from Finland, 14 from Sweden, one from Estonia, two from Denmark and one from the Russian Federation. In addition five helicopters served as logistical support, e.g. by transporting first-aid personnel.
The helicopters continued their search and retrieval until dark, when the search was broken off and they returned to their bases. The helicopters operated in the area for about 15 hours, from 0305 hrs to 1800 hrs.

6 helicopters were already at the scene when Y 64 arrived. It took off from Berga at 0445 hrs, picked up a physician and a nurse from Huddinge Hospital and arrived at the scene of the accident at 0552 hrs.
Q 99, the stand-by helicopter at Ronneby could have been the first there but when it received the alarm it was already on another rescue mission where it rescued two survivors from a fishing vessel.
This mission finished at 0238 hrs. Q 99 landed at 0325 hrs at Visby for refuelling and maintenance of equipment and took off from Visby at 0355 hrs, reaching the scene of the accident at 0440 hrs.

As I said.

 

[Stamuel]

So the authorities arrest and prosecute them for those criminal acts, right? Except here they don't. Why not?

If it's because the same authorities were in on it, why would they go after the people who were working for them instead of just continuing to keep it secret?

Is there any evidence that, say, Swedish prosecutors would have charged the officers with any smuggling offences or with transporting any illegal goods if they had turned up alive?

I love this theory. It is art.

An international conspiracy of world leaders set up the MS Estonia crew as fall guys to take the blame for the smuggling, which by extension (because the smuggling led to the Russian attack) meant setting up the crew as responsible for the sinking. With this cover story ready, the leaders then arrested the crew as smugglers and/or terrorists and staged a trial where all responsibility was placed on the crew, allowing those who gave the orders to wash their hands of responsibility. A clever plan.

Where it turns from clever to genius, however, is with the decision to do all of this in secret. Secret arrest. Secret trial. Secret cover story. Any conspiracy can set up a cover story and sell it to the public, but only a true artist can set up a cover story and then meticulously cover up the very existence of the cover story.

 

[Steve]

I am not interested in the cult of personality.

You should be interested in whether the individual you have incorrectly chosen to rely on as an authority has a passing relationship with reality in general. The likelihood that he could be correct and reliable re your particular pet theories and so, so, wrong about everything else is, shall we say, remote. Relying on this individual as your sole source of support fair reeks of desperation.

 

[Vixen]

Yes but how does that make the officers terrorists?
Did they plant the bombs that sank the ship?
That would make more sense that secret ninja squirrel Russians doing it

Just as Captain Lewry of The Herald of Free Enterprise was held responsible for his lazy git of a bosun who went for a kip in his cabin instead of shutting the car ramp and his other crew member who saw it was open but declared, 'Not my job', then I am afraid, the buck does stop with whoever is in charge.

So we have the senior officer crew all listed as survivors, except for the ones we know of as being deceased, and then their names removed, with no explanation. Yet three members of the 'lower orders' and a watchman, three of whom were in the pits of the engine room all managed to survive no problem at all, survival suits, passport, sorted. Yet those on Deck 6 and Deck 7 near the life-rafts and life boats, no pesky stairs to negotiate all popped their clogs. Apart from an elderly gent and an unhealthy Russian-Estonian family.

 

[JayUtah]

I am not interested in the cult of personality.

Corroboration of a purported expert opinion is not a "cult of personality." Instead it establishes that the views presented are reasonable according to the prevailing expertise of the field. If, on the other hand, the only "expert" opinion you can find to support your views is that of an obvious crackpot, then it lacks evidentiary value.

And you ignored the other questions. You tell us you have no interest in Björkman. But you believe him, defend him, and are advocating that others also believe him. That's interest. That you have no apparent desire to participate in his voir dire anymore tells us you're playing the same old game you have been. You vacillate between disavowing Björkman and extolling him. You're on the cusp of disavowing him now. But if you hold true to your past behavior, you'll just wait a few weeks and then start citing him as a source again. And we'll have to raise all this voir dire discussion all over again.

You tell us you just want to get to the bottom of things. We see it differently. You're behaving as if you want to see how long you can prolong this debate by bringing up topics again and again as if nobody else in this thread has said anything. We would like to voir dire Björkman and have the issue settled once and for all. You don't.

 

[Andy_Ross]

That is very different from the argument Spitfire presents.

How is it? Don't you think that denying the deaths of those killed by the bombs then implying it is some kind of conspiracy is pretty much the same as holocaust deniers who claim it is all a conspiracy?

 

[Andy_Ross]

As I said.

I don't know what point you think you are making though.
The movements and timing of all the helicopters is known.

 

[Steve]

I don't know what point you think you are making though.
The movements and timing of all the helicopters is known.

Even the secret helicopters that "disappeared" the crew members who would not participate in the conspiracy?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The evidence is that these people were listed as survivors. There is even supposedly a radio interview with the pilot of Y64 telling the interviewer he was just taking Piht to Huddinge.

On 28.09.94 in the morning the news of the Estonian Radio, Estonian TV, Finnish TV announced the rescue of 'A. Piht'. A Swedish helicopter had rescued 'A. Piht'.

Piht is mentioned in the list of survivors of Estlines in Tallinn on September 28, 1994 at number 13 at 13.03 at Turku University Central Hospital (TYKS). On the same day, Turku's maritime director Erik Mörd said that Avo Piht had been transported by car to Helsinki. 28.9. Estonian radio station KuKu sent an interview to a helicopter crew member. Apparently a Swedish helicopter Y-64, the interviewee, said he had rescued Avo Pihti. When Spiegel TV's Jutta Rabe tried to get an interview tape, the director of the radio station supposedly told her that the tape had already been seized by the Estonian security police.

Two days later, Reuters interviewed Bengt Stenmark, head of the Department of Water Transport Safety. He also said he had been in contact with Piht after the accident. On October 1, 1994, the Estonian Embassy filed a protest with the Swedish Foreign Ministry over access to information about Estonian passengers. Swedish police had also blocked the Estonian consul from visiting the survivors at Södersjukhus Hospital. 1.10.1994

On October 16, 1994, Aftonbladet said the only surviving officer was the ship's doctor, Viktor Bogdanov, 42. Crew member Anders Vikner had previously called Bogdanov's wife and assured him, "Viktor has been saved and is here with me." But Viktor never came home and has disappeared into the ether. Vikner apologised and claimed to have made a mistake, in his turmoil. Vamo said her husband had always been very silent about his work, it was as if he had possessed a secret that was heavy to carry.

It was assumed that Chief Engineer and the first mechanic, Lembit Leiger, was originally taken to Huddinge Hospital in Sweden. Commissioner Stridlund told Leigner's relatives that after hospitalization, Leiger would be sent to Tallinn by plane. When the family arrived to pick up Leiger, he was not on the plane. Since then, Leiger, too has disappeared.

Unfortunate errors? How come there has never been any explanation at all as to how such errors could have happened? Silence. Blank. No mention in the JAIC.

Maybe they are indeed just unfortunate errors. Having an erroneous report repeated by multiple news outlets is still just one initial error.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

As many as 1,000 were killed, remember.

Are you saying you think the authorities thought the officers deliberately sabotaged their own ship?

What are you saying? What made governments conspire to go after the Estonia's officers in secret? It makes zero sense.