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Cont: Trump’s Coup - Part 2

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Thermal said:
By the time you go from "coup" to "incompetent attempted coup that never got off the ground because there was no one to make it happen", doesn't it make a little more sense to just stop trying to label it what it wasn't? Seems like a waste of perfectly good qualifiers.
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You might gain more traction with this argument if you stopped downplaying what happened and actually gave an honest and accurate description instead of saying things like this:
Thermal said:
What did they do? Trashed the joint. Then what? Went home, and Congress went back to work.
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It's difficult to take seriously the criticism of how other people are describing January 6th from someone who seems incapable of acknowledging the full scope and seriousness of what took place.
 
Thermal said:
A coup is seizing or wresting power. It's not a request. It's not empty threats. It's not even riling up the dogs and siccing them on the Capitol. It is the *act* of actually seizing it, attempted or otherwise, and competently or not. All the unAmerican things the Republicans did never rose to the level of actual *seizure*. That's all we have been arguing about.
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All those things happened and your denial of things we saw with our owns eyes and have supplementary documentation to support it just isn’t convincing. You’ve done nothing to support your rather bizarre position.
 
It is circular logic. They didn't succeed because the plan was bad and they were incompetent, but it was too bad and too incompetent to take seriously as an attempt. So it's something else entirely I guess.

I mean, they are a bunch of dishonest incompetents, but they were taking it very seriously.
 
johnny karate said:
You might gain more traction with this argument if you stopped downplaying what happened and actually gave an honest and accurate description instead of saying things like this:



It's difficult to take seriously the criticism of how other people are describing January 6th from someone who seems incapable of acknowledging the full scope and seriousness of what took place.
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True. Of course, the texts/emails flying back and forth on Jan.6 from Trump supporting FOX big mouths, Donnie Jr, and Congress members, etc screaming for Trump to tell his cult followers to STOP their assault on the Capitol rather belie their public comments that it was no big deal...just ordinary and peaceful tourists and protesters.

Lordy...people can deny even the most obvious things if it suits their bias.
 
Stacyhs said:
True. Of course, the texts/emails flying back and forth on Jan.6 from Trump supporting FOX big mouths, Donnie Jr, and Congress members, etc screaming for Trump to tell his cult followers to STOP their assault on the Capitol rather belie their public comments that it was no big deal...just ordinary and peaceful tourists and protesters.

Lordy...people can deny even the most obvious things if it suits their bias.
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Indeed. The human capacity to not see when it is too much of a shock to do so is a literal thing. See hysterical blindness.
 
Lurch said:
Indeed. The human capacity to not see when it is too much of a shock to do so is a literal thing. See hysterical blindness.
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Man, ain't it the truth. I'm just blinded to Trump and the Willard boys and everyone who is presently in Levenworth for their obvious and indisputable coup attempt. I mean,...right?

Or wait...are you guys running compound conspiracy theories? The DOJ is in on it? The Democrat controlled Congress? Is the White House in on it too? How deep does your conspiracy go?
 
Thermal said:
Man, ain't it the truth. I'm just blinded to Trump and the Willard boys and everyone who is presently in Levenworth for their obvious and indisputable coup attempt. I mean,...right?

Or wait...are you guys running compound conspiracy theories? The DOJ is in on it? The Democrat controlled Congress? Is the White House in on it too? How deep does your conspiracy go?
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This indicates you don't think Trump has done any of the obvious crimes he's done and that OJ isn't a murderer.

There is no conspiracy required. People not taking it seriously enough just have to be too concerned with not seeming unreasonable or think like, well, you.

'Must be incarcerated' is another invalid goalpost you have no reason nor authority to set. It remains a coup attempt. (Your post will probably not age well as it sure does look like the House investigation is laying the foundation for criminal prosecution for planners, not that your goals having been met changed your mind before but it'll be funny to watch you claim the actual charges don't even have the word 'coup' in them.)
 
tyr_13 said:
This indicates you don't think Trump has done any of the obvious crimes he's done...
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We're not talking about crimes he's done (and btw, I've been howling about his crimes since literally the last century right up to today). We are talking about this one very specific crime. One of the greatest offenses that can be taken against the United States.

...and that OJ isn't a murderer.
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You mean the OJ that was arrested, charged, and tried for murder? Let's compare with...oh Christ, why do I bother.

There is no conspiracy required. People not taking it seriously enough just have to be too concerned with not seeming unreasonable or think like, well, you.
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Priceless. "They just can't be bothered to charge people with the one of the highest crimes committed against the Union". Seriously, you can't make this **** up.

'Must be incarcerated' is another invalid goalpost you have no reason nor authority to set. It remains a coup attempt. (Your post will probably not age well as it sure does look like the House investigation is laying the foundation for criminal prosecution for planners, not that your goals having been met changed your mind before but it'll be funny to watch you claim the actual charges don't even have the word 'coup' in them.)
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As I've said over and over, I hope every one goes down in serious prison time. But what I asked you is why aren't they charged now, or six months ago, if it is as obvious and indisputable as you claim?

It's simple. If it is recognized as a coup attempt, that is one of the most serious crimes against the nation. Trump would not be walking as a free man. Period. You guys just can't see that external reality does not agree with you. It agrees with me. Why haven't any of the hundreds of J6ers been charged with sedition if it is so obvious and indisputable?

Tell me again how the DOJ, Democrat controlled Congress, and Democratic Executive branch can't be bothered to charge them with this offense against the State. I peed a little the last time.
 
Nightmare scenario: Trump is not held accountable for his treasonous coup attempt and is allowed to cheat his way to a 2024 victory after some state elections laws have been tweaked in his favor.
 
Thermal said:
By the time you go from "coup" to "incompetent attempted coup ...
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Nobody's claiming it was a successful coup so nobody is starting there. If you all you wanted was to insert the additional qualifier 'incompetent' in front of 'attempted' this argument would not still be going on many pages later.
 
Thermal said:
Man, ain't it the truth. I'm just blinded to Trump and the Willard boys and everyone who is presently in Levenworth for their obvious and indisputable coup attempt. I mean,...right?

Or wait...are you guys running compound conspiracy theories? The DOJ is in on it? The Democrat controlled Congress? Is the White House in on it too? How deep does your conspiracy go?
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It’s under investigation right now. That investigation is where much of the new evidence being discussed is coming from. From others taking this seriously.
 
Pixel42 said:
Nobody's claiming it was a successful coup so nobody is starting there.
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Ahem.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13349312#post13349312


If you all you wanted was to insert the additional qualifier 'incompetent' in front of 'attempted' this argument would not still be going on many pages later.
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No. that is not what I wanted to insert. I have argued so for many pages.

And I am not judging it in hindsight (the appallingly stupid "it was not effective so not a coup" reply from so many here).

I really can't explain it any clearer. No attempt at a coup was made. Many other serious crimes intended to keep Trump in power were committed. None of these were a coup attempt, by simple definition.
 
I think in a short time Meadows will have to turn over his remaining communications, some of which will be directly with Trump; he is claiming executive privilege, which means they should be turned over to the National Archive and eventually to the committee if that's true, or they're not privileged in which case they must be turned over to the committee.

Either way, I have a feeling those communications will be pretty revealing. There was already a lot of other pretty incriminating stuff in his possession.
 
dirtywick said:
It’s under investigation right now. That investigation is where much of the new evidence being discussed is coming from. From others taking this seriously.
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What do you mean, "investigation"? You guys slam-dunked this one for like a year now, remember?

Do you mean to suggest that people with a couple neurons firing wouldn't declare it a coup attempt so rashly, and it would take time for legal and criminal professionals to even figure out before declaring it one? Go on...
 
Thermal said:
What do you mean, "investigation"? You guys slam-dunked this one for like a year now, remember?

Do you mean to suggest that people with a couple neurons firing wouldn't declare it a coup attempt so rashly, and it would take time for legal and criminal professionals to even figure out before declaring it one? Go on...
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I mean, yeah. People were calling it a coup for quite a while, and as the investigation into it continues, more and more evidence emerges to supports that. I don't think it's so much as questioning whether or not there were real, actual efforts to overthrow a democratic election for the presidency, but determining the width and breadth of the efforts to make it happen. None of that is really inconsistent with reality, or even particularly confusing to me.

-edit-

And bringing charges like these would be one of the most monumentally important events in US history. Succeeding or failing, or even choosing not to bring charges, will be one of the things that alters the course of the country forever. One would hope they would be thorough in the investigation and not take any decisions lightly here.
 
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Stacyhs said:
What part of the word "attempt" do you not understand? Are you really going...Jesus..how many pages back?...to start arguing about what a 'coup' is? Just because Pence didn't do it, doesn't mean they weren't serious about getting him to do it. Stop with the "It wasn't successful so that means it wasn't really an attempt at all" crap.
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So much potential fun.

The Soviets never landed a man on the Moon, therefore they had no manned moon program.

Barbarosa failed, therefore the Germans didn't *really* intend to invade Russia and take vast swathes of territory.

I guess Thermal thinks that Trump wasn't really running for President in 2020 because he didn't win.
 
Thermal said:
Ahem.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13349312#post13349312




No. that is not what I wanted to insert. I have argued so for many pages.

And I am not judging it in hindsight (the appallingly stupid "it was not effective so not a coup" reply from so many here).

I really can't explain it any clearer. No attempt at a coup was made. Many other serious crimes intended to keep Trump in power were committed. None of these were a coup attempt, by simple definition.
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Strange. Your by simple definition of a 'coup attempt' just doesn't seem to agree with what the dictionaries say.
 
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