Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part IV

[Andy_Ross]

I was pointing out that whilst the Soviet/Russians were relatively 'backward' compared to the west in many ways, when it came to naval stuff, they were probably world leaders, despite using notoriously old equipment (which led to the Kursk disaster for one).

What, in the offer makes them 'world leaders'? if they are using 'notoriously old equipment'

If they lead so much why did they get a foreign company to raise the Kursk?

Most of the leaders in deep diving are the companies working in the North Sea.

 

[Andy_Ross]

You brought us the story of the steel plates. I don't know your source. If you have information rather than assumptions about how they were fixed in place that might be useful too.

A rotation from 214° to 224° would bring an object closer towards being upright again (360°). Maybe check the numbers.

It would also depend where the holes were cut in the first place

 

[Vixen]

There was an error on the date of your ex's birth, according to you.

You are now claiming there wasn't. One of the two statements must be false.

As I said, he was born the same year as the moon landings, actually fifteen days before Neil Armstrong walked on it.

So I mistakenly said it was 1976 without thinking.

I then corrected it. It was not even relevant to the OP.

If you have never made a mistake yourself then you have every right to lay into me.

 

[Vixen]

Yes, there was. There was then an attempt to evade responsibility for that error by claiming that your ex said he was born in the same year and he was born in 1976, followed by a correction to his date of birth, and a claim that you didn’t get his age wrong.

Have you never heard of Healey’s first law?

It was a simple mistake. Let me know what punishment you would like to inflict. Assuming you yourself have never made a mistake ever.

 

[Vixen]

Well, it would establish which date was a lie, 1969 or 1976.

So making a mistake over a date now becomes 'a lie'. So mistakenly stating the Moon Landing was 1976 was a lie designed to mislead everybody into thinking it happened in 1976 for nefarious reasons best known to yourself and was obviously not a simple mistake as you yourself have never made a similar mistake in your life and always scored 100% in all your exams, including driving test.

 

[Mojo]

What I said was that my ex was born the same year as the moon landing and mistakenly thought this to be 1976. He was actually born in 1969, so it was a simple error which I immediately corrected. It is telling that people swoop down to beat me up over it, as if no-one has the right to make a mistake and correct it.


Perhaps reflect on whether this is fair.

Nope. What you did was claim that the moon landing was in 1976, and then, when called out on the error, tried to justify that statement by claiming that you thought it had been in 1976 because your ex had told you it was the same year as his birth, and that had been in 1976. You didn’t immediately correct the error, you tried to evade responsibility for it by blaming someone else.

 

[Andy_Ross]

So making a mistake over a date now becomes 'a lie'. So mistakenly stating the Moon Landing was 1976 was a lie designed to mislead everybody into thinking it happened in 1976 for nefarious reasons best known to yourself and was obviously not a simple mistake as you yourself have never made a similar mistake in your life and always scored 100% in all your exams, including driving test.

No, the point is you made a mistake, you didn't check, then you compounded it by bringing in the DOB of your ex.

You do this all the time, you post information that you haven't checked or you 'assume' without checking.

That's why we never trust what you post without double checking.

Your latest one is your assumptions on how advanced the Russian navy is

 

[Mojo]

Nope. What you did was claim that the moon landing was in 1976, and then, when called out on the error, tried to justify that statement by claiming that you thought it had been in 1976 because your ex had told you it was the same year as his birth, and that had been in 1976. You didn’t immediately correct the error, you tried to evade responsibility for it by blaming someone else.

And then, of course, you corrected the birth date and then claimed that you hadn’t got your ex’s age wrong.

 

[erwinl]

It was a simple mistake. Let me know what punishment you would like to inflict. Assuming you yourself have never made a mistake ever.

The issue is, that whenever you state a matter of fact, doesn't matter, if it is a situation, some numbers, or dates, there is something in it that is wrong. This is almost everytime you post something like this.

Now, there are things which can be very easily checked, or are even common knowledge. Things like the moonlanding (common knowledge) or whether that professor actually said it was a 5 ton submarine or a 1 ton fishingvessel (easily checked and something which you, as far as I have seen, have still no aknowledged you were wrong in).

Point is. These are easily verified errors. But what are the errors in statements of yours, that con not be easily checked by us?
Can we assume that you only make errors in easily verified facts and none in the not so easliy verified ones? Is that reasonable to assume?

Fact is, there are so many errors (whether sloppiness, incapability, or on purpose), that nothing what you say can be relied upon without any corroboration of primary sources. Primary sources, which you are very reluctant to voluntarily provide, I must add.

 

[abaddon]

So making a mistake over a date now becomes 'a lie'. So mistakenly stating the Moon Landing was 1976 was a lie designed to mislead everybody into thinking it happened in 1976 for nefarious reasons best known to yourself and was obviously not a simple mistake as you yourself have never made a similar mistake in your life and always scored 100% in all your exams, including driving test.

Nope. It is part of a pattern. You have made so many wild claims at this point that I doubt you even have an ex or ever had a partner of any sort. Why? Because you get so many things wrong all the time. Or make them up out of whole cloth.

 

[Vixen]

Nope. What you did was claim that the moon landing was in 1976, and then, when called out on the error, tried to justify that statement by claiming that you thought it had been in 1976 because your ex had told you it was the same year as his birth, and that had been in 1976. You didn’t immediately correct the error, you tried to evade responsibility for it by blaming someone else.

I often use mnemonics to remember birthdates.

 

[zooterkin]

I often use mnemonics to remember birthdates.

Not very good ones, apparently.

What does your response have to do with what you were replying to?

 

[whoanellie]

So I mistakenly said [something] without thinking.

You do this a lot.

 

[Vixen]

You're the citation.

You said they (whoever they are) had made the offer less than two days after the disaster. You previously asked us why it took two weeks to locate the wreck. It didn't, but your new claim still places the offer of rescue equipment before the location of the wreck.

Apropos of this, the firm as reported in Itar-Tass, 29 September 1994 (=immediately after the accident) by Lev Rumiyantzev, was a Russian submarine designers, Igor Spassky and Sergei Kovalyov, who reckoned they could send down a pipe to cut the bilge and pull the surviving passengers and crew to the surface.

About Igor Spassky:

The following year I received a fax from Academician Igor Dmitriyevich Spassky, the director and general designer of the Rubin Central Design Bureau in St. Petersburg. Spassky, a graduate of the Dzerzhinsky* Higher Naval Engineering School in Leningrad, served in the Soviet Navy after World War II. After earning an advanced degree and brief service in a cruiser, he was assigned to submarine design work at Central Design Bureau No. 18—now named Rubin. He was discharged from the Navy in 1955, transferred to the reserves, and continued to work at the design bureau, rising to director of the prestigious organization in 1974.

Navy History org

ETA: *so named after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Dzerzhinsky

Founder of Russian spy agencies.

 

[Vixen]

Not very good ones, apparently.

What does your response have to do with what you were replying to?

My ex' dob = 'moon landing year'.

 

[zooterkin]

BTW, the manned exploration of the lunar surface occurred between 1969 and 1972. I'm not sure why you think the year 1976 is relevant.

My ex- used to say he born the same year. As he was born 1976 I assumed that was the year.

Nope. What you did was claim that the moon landing was in 1976, and then, when called out on the error, tried to justify that statement by claiming that you thought it had been in 1976 because your ex had told you it was the same year as his birth, and that had been in 1976. You didn’t immediately correct the error, you tried to evade responsibility for it by blaming someone else.

And then, of course, you corrected the birth date and then claimed that you hadn’t got your ex’s age wrong.

I often use mnemonics to remember birthdates.

Not very good ones, apparently.

What does your response have to do with what you were replying to?

My ex' dob = 'moon landing year'.

Are you saying that's the mnemonic you use? Because earlier you said it was the other way around; moon landing year = ex's dob. Otherwise how do you get to 1976 for the year?

 

[JesseCuster]

Evertsson deferred to an expert in naval explosives and also to Dr Ulfversson of a Norwegian University, who gave his professional and objective opinion that such a hole was caused by an enormous force which could not be explained by a 55 tonne bow visor. He said the force of the indentation caused was the equivalent of a five tonne submarine at 1.99kn (?) or a small one tonne fishing vessel at 5 kn IIRC.

You sure about that?

I think you'll find that he said that the vessel could have been either 5,000 tonnes or 1,000 tonnes, not 5 or 1 tonnes.

 

[Vixen]

Are you saying that's the mnemonic you use? Because earlier you said it was the other way around; moon landing year = ex's dob. Otherwise how do you get to 1976 for the year?

I actually did check the dates of the events mentioned. I have no idea where 1976 came from but it was a simple error.

 

[Mojo]

I actually did check the dates of the events mentioned. I have no idea where 1976 came from but it was a simple error.

Then why did you try to defend it using your ex’s birth year, rather than just admitting the simple error?

 

[Mojo]

I often use mnemonics to remember birthdates.

Irrelevant.