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Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

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I found this to be a resonant way to phrase the way I feel about this ideology.

https://twitter.com/WomenReadWomen/status/1469221149569880066?s=20

Gender ideology reduces the entire female sex to castrated men — whether that is surgical, chemical, or metaphorical.
..
The year is 2021, & we are forced to argue that women are not castrated men.
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I don't particularly see the second sentence as helpful, but the sentiment here is pretty accurate.

People with severe gender dysphoria are one thing, they should be accommodated as much as is reasonable. But the push to make gender identity self-declared, as well as for gender identity to trump sex... It really does end up feeling like females are being redefined as "non-men".

And we have LITERALLY been referred to in that way. For example, UK's Green Party Women's committee is open to "Non-Men". The party now has "Men" and "Everyone else" because "women" aren't a category of our own. Female is a failure to "man". :(
 
TomB said:
Really?

Another way to phrase these would be: "Not being interested in trans people is bigoted and transphobic. You wouldn't want to be a bigot would you? Maybe you should rethink your position and be more open to dating trans people."

It's a somewhat veiled coercive argument. The intent is to shame people into changing their sexual preferences orientation by characterizing those preferences orientations as bad. But, of course, with some interspection, you can recognize that your preferences orientations are wrong and just change them. It basically implies that ones sexual preference orientation is a choice, and some choices are bad.
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I agree with your overall message here, but I'm pushing back on language. Gay and Lesbian people put a huge amount of effort into making it clear that their sexual orientation is NOT a choice, it's NOT a 'preference'.

Framing it as a 'preference' implies that there is a choice involved, that it's not a hard-wired orientation, but just something in a prioritization list. It's like saying I have a preference for apple juice over orange juice, which implies that orange juice is still acceptable. That's not the case for homosexual people.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
"Feminist workshop lightly encourages introspection, news at 11"


Internalized misogyny, homophobia, racism, etc are not particularly controversial topics in such circles. The idea that some people would have internalized transphobia is not a huge leap. Given the hard lines that these organizations take around consent and full bodily autonomy, it's pretty safe to assume nobody is being taught to badger sex out of reluctant feminists. Maybe the TERFs and media outlets platforming them could provide a shred of evidence otherwise.
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:rolleyes: Let's get together and discuss strategies we can use to convince LESBIANS that they should "introspect" their orientation and be receptive to PENISES.

Yep, that's perfectly okay, no big deal, no problem there at all.

Wait, what am I saying? We KNOW that you don't see any problem at all with trying to "reeducate" females and gaslight them into accepting that males are females too.

SuburbanTurkey said:
ETA: Don't you think it's bit telling that some Planned Parenthood can't hold a workshop (let's be honest, that was probably pretty sparsely attended) that discusses the particular difficulties of being trans in the dating world without TERFs spuriously claiming it's some rape training camp?
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Don't you think it's a bit telling that several rape crisis centers and domestic violence shelters (that are absolutely vital to females) have been harassed, vandalized, and threatened into either shutting down or to be inclusive of males, regardless of the trauma this causes the females using those services?

SuburbanTurkey said:
I suppose if you believe every trans woman is just some crypto-male pervert, a few organizing a meetup together to talk would be very alarming.
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I suppose if you think every rape victim is an evil bigot whose trauma excludes males is actually trying to commit genocide against the oh-so-oppressed males who identify as 'women'.



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++


On the other hand, I will say that transgender identified males who actually have autogynephilia can absolutely be crypto-perverts. Autogynephilia is a paraphilia, and affirming that paraphilia in such males makes females be participants in their sexual fetish against our will and without our consent.
 
Earthborn said:
Depends on your definition of "biological male" and why you think there should be divisions labeled "women".
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Sure. I mean, if you redefine "biological male" to mean nothing at all, and you redefine "women" to be "non-men", sure, no divisions are needed. As long as females don't matter to you as being independent entities of their own, rather than being defined as Adam's Rib, sure, no problem.

**** those females, they don't matter. Who do they think they are wanting to take part in society, economics, politics, and sports! Females just aren't suited for that, they should just stick to things that females are good at, and we'll let males do all the other stuff. :rolleyes:

It's all fine and dandy to take some academic concept of hypothetical equality and run with it. It's another thing altogether to ignore the actual real-world implications of those concept and pretend that your "make everything equal" does anything other than enforce inequality.

Tell you what, since you seem to think that sex is irrelevant and shouldn't matter, and that sports etc. should not be separated on the basis of sex, and that it should totally just be "whoever wins"...

Can you make a coherent argument for why we should allow sports (or anything else) to be separated on the basis of age? Can you provide a reason why we should allow 30 year old males to compete in Little League?
 
Earthborn said:
Depends on your definition of "biological male" and why you think there should be divisions labeled "women".
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EC had a good response to this, but I will just add one thing. It was this sentence that led to my earlier response that it affirmed you don't care about sports.

If you care about women's sports, it's blindingly obvious how and why to define those terms in the ways they are used consistently in sports. It has also been discussed so many times in the thread that I don't care to do it again.
 
Meadmaker said:
The idea that testing, or lack thereof, drove the question of trans-inclusion.



As for the rest, it jsut affirms that you aren't really interested in sports.
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Clearly.

I’ve made the point before and few address it. Women are being injured in contact sports like rugby by male-bodied transwomen. Why should this be allowed to happen?
 
lionking said:
Clearly.

I’ve made the point before and few address it. Women are being injured in contact sports like rugby by male-bodied transwomen. Why should this be allowed to happen?
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Part of the fun. Fallon Fox gloated about fracturing the skull of a lesbian who didn't want to suck dick
 
theprestige said:
I would say it has indeed made real progress. We now have a much better idea of exactly how incoherent, unscientific, antisocial, and relentlessly misogynistic the TRA position is.
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Undersigned, especially wrt unscientific.

The notion that equality demands allowing people to compete based on mental rather than physical characteristics remains indefensible, no matter how much self-righteous indignation is mustered to the cause.
 
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Today's trans story from the BBC:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59584638

Dancers who accused a leading choreographer of transphobia have claimed she has jeopardised their safety by publicising her resignation.

Rosie Kay resigned this week from the dance company she founded in 2004.

She says she's been forced out for views on sex and gender, expressed at a dinner party in her home in August.
 
Here is the McDonald Laurier Institute Report, Fair Game: Biology, Fairness, and Transgender Athletes in Women’s Sport.

Their conclusion:

"it seems to us that fairness in sport can be achieved with the removal, as far as is possible, of gender identifiers in sport, and the reconceptualization of the male category as “Open” and the women’s category as “Female” where female refers to the sex recorded at birth."
 
d4m10n said:
The way things are going, this thread will still be around to check in on that prediction.
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And I'm sure when that happens I'll still be trying to come to terms with the idea of a serious athlete voluntarily downgrading their physical performance to "compete" at anything less than their full capability.

It'll be interesting, over the next couple years, to see how many sporting organizations actively hate women and wish they weren't in sports.
 
Matthew Best said:
Here is the McDonald Laurier Institute Report, Fair Game: Biology, Fairness, and Transgender Athletes in Women’s Sport.

Their conclusion:

"it seems to us that fairness in sport can be achieved with the removal, as far as is possible, of gender identifiers in sport, and the reconceptualization of the male category as “Open” and the women’s category as “Female” where female refers to the sex recorded at birth."
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O, come on! Be serious! It has biology right there in the title! That's a sure sign that it's written by TERFs.
 
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