Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[lionking]

Trans people have every right in that regard already too. They can trash talk people who refuse to date them, as ridiculous at that may seem to others.
Surely you're not conflating "cotton ceiling" talk with some deranged view that trans people demand a right to compel others to sleep with them against their will. That would be a ridiculous strawman.

And people who refuse to **** them like lesbians?

You can’t possibly be serious.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

And people who refuse to **** them like lesbians?

You can’t possibly be serious.

Again, what "right" are they demanding beyond the right to have opinions about other people. It's probably for the best for the "cotton ceiling" people be open about their strange beliefs to help them find compatible romantic partners.

It strikes me as stupid, but let's not pretend that a small fringe of strangers having opinions about the dating market is something anyone should really care about.

 

[lionking]

Again, what "right" are they demanding beyond the right to have opinions about other people. It's probably for the best for the "cotton ceiling" people be open about their strange beliefs to help them find compatible romantic partners.

It strikes me as stupid, but let's not pretend that a small fringe of strangers having opinions about the dating market is something anyone should really care about.

The potential victims of the trans rapists certainly have something to care about. But you clearly put their concerns in the waste paper basket.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

The potential victims of the trans rapists certainly have something to care about. But you clearly put their concerns in the waste paper basket.

Is rape going to be legalized?

 

[lionking]

Is rape going to be legalized?

Have you been reading this thread? There was a case just linked in my city where a transwoman was jailed for raping a woman.

Rape is not going to be legalised, but to deny that transwomen are not a threat to women is idiocy.

 

[Earthborn]

No one needs invasive medical tests to exclude competitors like Lia Thomas and Laurel Hubbard, each of whom used to compete as males. It seems to me you've subtly changed the subject from those who transition to those born intersex.

No, I am not. Genital and chromosome checks for the Olympics started in the sixties specifically to rule out transsexuals. People started noticing that women athletes -- especially from the eastern bloc -- looked rather mannish and some suspected that some countries were turning male athletes into women and having them compete in the women's competitions (they weren't, they were doping female athletes with testosterone)

The Sydney Olympics in 2000 were the first without such checks because all they ever manage to do was exclude athletes who were biologically female. Now if only the Olympics stopped being the destroyer of nations that it is, and they get a little less stingy with their broadcast rights so I can actually watch the damn thing, that would be sweet.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Have you been reading this thread? There was a case just linked in my city where a transwoman was jailed for raping a woman.

Rape is not going to be legalised, but to deny that transwomen are not a threat to women is idiocy.

Criminals gonna commit crimes. Some trans people, like all people, are criminals.

Not sure what an anecdote about some trans person committing a crime and being appropriately charged contributes to this conversation.

What exactly should society have done differently to prevent this? A rapist attacked someone on the street. This is already mega illegal. What else do you think can be done?

Are all trans people culpable for the sins of an unabashed rapist who happens to be trans? Are their rights somehow implicated because of this broad daylight crime?

 

[Manger Douse]

.

It strikes me as stupid, but let's not pretend that a small fringe of strangers having opinions about the dating market is something anyone should really care about.

Lesbians who refuse to sleep with males are TERFS so it's very much not a small fringe, it's every trans rights activist that uses TERF as a slur

 

[lionking]

No, I am not. Genital and chromosome checks for the Olympics started in the sixties specifically to rule out transsexuals. People started noticing that women athletes -- especially from the eastern bloc -- looked rather mannish and some suspected that some countries were turning male athletes into women and having them compete in the women's competitions (they weren't, they were doping female athletes with testosterone)

The Sydney Olympics in 2000 were the first without such checks because all they ever manage to do was exclude athletes who were biologically female. Now if only the Olympics stopped being the destroyer of nations that it is, and they get a little less stingy with their broadcast rights so I can actually watch the damn thing, that would be sweet.

What does this even mean? How are Olympics destroyer of nations? And how does natal women being denied their ability to compete fairly because of transwomen have to do with the idea of the aolympics?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Lesbians who refuse to sleep with males are TERFS so it's very much not a small fringe, it's every trans rights activist that uses TERF as a slur

I trust you have good evidence to suggest that this is a universally held view by those opposed to TERFs.

 

[d4m10n]

Genital and chromosome checks for the Olympics started in the sixties specifically to rule out transsexuals. People started noticing that women athletes -- especially from the eastern bloc -- looked rather mannish and some suspected that some countries were turning male athletes into women and having them compete in the women's competitions (they weren't, they were doping female athletes with testosterone).

Okay, so what has this to do with eligibility of the aforementioned trans women? Do we need any testing to know they enjoy the advantages of male puberty?

 

[Manger Douse]

I trust you have good evidence to suggest that this is a universally held view by those opposed to TERFs.

Stonewall seem to think so but whether or not the adverage TRA knows they're balls deep in rape culture I can't say but Excluding Transwomen from the bedroom fits the acronym of TERF

 

[theprestige]

I don't understand. For the countries we're talking about most here, trans people already have all the rights in the bedroom as anyone else. They can sleep with anyone that will have them. Other than in some regressive places that criminalize certain sex acts and/or homosexuality, trans people don't have any special status in this regard.

My point five was in the context of my point four, which you elided. Answer my question in point four, and I'll happily explain anything you like about point five in the context of your answer.

 

[Earthborn]

Okay, so what has this to do with eligibility of the aforementioned trans women? Do we need any testing to know they enjoy the advantages of male puberty?

If you disallow transwomen to compete openly because you don't want transwomen competing against female athletes, you'll still have to have some way of figuring out whether an athlete may be a transwoman without telling anyone. You will need testing to know whether they enjoy the advantages of male puberty or whether they enjoy the advantages of just having the physique of a person who is really good at their sport.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

First of all, is the right to not treat biological males as biological females actually "very much in contention"? My understanding is that the trans-inclusionist side emphasizes gender affirmation, not sexual affirmation.

"treat" is doing a lot of work here. I'm not even sure what gender affirmation would look like in a society that maintains a rigid sex segregation. Outside very specific venues (clinical, medical) where sex specifically is vital, gender roles seems to be the more dominant concern.

Second, are there actually any jurisdictions where trans-exclusionists don't have the right to not treat biological males as biological females? My understanding is that even jurisdictions which recognize a right for transwomen to use women's spaces do so on the basis of gender identity, not biological sex.

Not sure I understand this. Sure, exclusionists everywhere can still insist on whatever definition of sex they prefer, but for all practical purposes discriminating on the basis of sex is banned in some locations.

Third, I have been arguing for some time that as a practical effect, transgender identity rights are a stalking horse for transsexual identity rights. But while I personally would say that this is in fact the point in contention, I'm a little surprise to see the same thing being claimed openly from the trans-inclusionist side. Is that really how you see it? This is a question of the right to be treated not as the opposite gender (whatever that means) but as the opposite sex (which has a clear biological meaning with practical implications in the real world)?

The way I see it, TERFS and other exclusionists insist that sex differences are basically the only thing that matters and gender differences are basically irrelevant. I reject that.

Fourth, more tersely, do you believe transwomen should have the right to be treated as the opposite sex?

Depends on what you mean by "treat" again. No law will change anyone's chromosomes, but whether or not we "treat" trans women as women is very much a social decision.

 

[d4m10n]

If you disallow transwomen to compete openly because you don't want transwomen competing against female athletes, you'll still have to have some way of figuring out whether an athlete may be a transwoman without telling anyone. You will need testing to know whether they enjoy the advantages of male puberty or whether they enjoy the advantages of just having the physique of a person who is really good at their sport.

Like, some sort of certification of live birth?

 

[Earthborn]

Like, some sort of certification of live birth?

Sure, if all the particating countries accurately kept such records and none of them had any incentive to forge them...

 

[Meadmaker]

If you disallow transwomen to compete openly because you don't want transwomen competing against female athletes, you'll still have to have some way of figuring out whether an athlete may be a transwoman without telling anyone. You will need testing to know whether they enjoy the advantages of male puberty or whether they enjoy the advantages of just having the physique of a person who is really good at their sport.

Or, we could just do what we do now, which isn't particularly invasive or involuntary. I don't hear women complaining about the horrors of whatever testing is done.

It's just a distraction. I don't need invasive medical tests to know that Laurel Hubbard has a guy's body. Maybe if we could just acknowledge that the obvious cases exist, we could note that there are a few fringe cases where it might be difficult to assess eligibility.

Meanwhile, there have been some references to biological women who were excluded, and I wish the references weren't so oblique. If that has happened, I'd kind of like to understand what's going on, but I can't do that without more information. I think what has happened is that there are a few women with abnormally high, but naturally occurring, testesterone levels. Some of these women have been caught up in the testesterone based protocols that were put in place in an attempt to keep biological males out of the women's competition.

In other words, some athletic federations have bent over backwards to try and find a fair process that allows biological males to compete as women, and they've ended up excluding some cis-women in the process. That's something athletic federations really need to address. I don't have the medical expertise to be certain what the right answer is in every case. However, even the very difficult cases are actually not all that difficult to decide. I don't hear women athletes objecting to the odious testing that they have to endure in order to compete. The testing concerns are just a made up issue.

 

[Olmstead]

Sure, if all the particating countries accurately kept such records and none of them had any incentive to forge them...

So what? Many athletes today are likely doping in ways that cannot be detected, and yet we aren't isolating them for months before a competition because it's the only way to make sure.

People want to get rid of an ant infestation in their home, and you're asking them why they want to nuke their house from orbit.

 

[Meadmaker]

Again, what "right" are they demanding beyond the right to have opinions about other people. It's probably for the best for the "cotton ceiling" people be open about their strange beliefs to help them find compatible romantic partners.

It strikes me as stupid, but let's not pretend that a small fringe of strangers having opinions about the dating market is something anyone should really care about.

I have to agree, mostly, with SuburbanTurkey on this one.

The cotton ceiling whiners are fringe weirdos not to be taken seriously. The reason I have to say "mostly" is that it's unfortunate that an awful lot of TRAs won't come out and say that. When I first heard about the term, I assumed it was actually some sort of bogeyman invented, or at least magnified, by anti-trans activists. I was appalled to find out that I was wrong. These people are actually taken seriously in writings from the LGBTQetc+ community, which is unfortunate.