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Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

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Anecdote.


Let's just hope that when she was thrown behind bars, they were women's bars. Men's prisons are dangerous.

I would hope that appropriate precautions are taken to ensure a repeat sex offender can't victimize other inmates, and won't be victimized themselves. I'm not familiar enough with Australian prisons to know if that is likely.
 
In other words, just get rid of female sports altogether, because the separate categories mean that people aren't having fun.
If your idea of fun requires women to be subjected to involuntary and invasive medical checks just to exclude some people, I don't care much for it.

Ask biological women athletes that question. You know, the ones who are being deprived of their passion, safety and even livelihood by male bodied transwomen who were inept when competing as male.
They are deprived only if you think they are somehow entitled to winning, which is not how competitive sports work I think. There is always a large chance that someone else scores higher.

Quite a few athletes who had every right to believe they were biological women were deprived of their passion and livelihood when invasive medical tests were used in an attempt to exclude transwomen, but I guess they don't count.
 
But they don't seem to notice that competition is a strong part of most recreational games. Monopoly, Clue, horseshoes, poker, chutes and ladders. They all have winners and losers.
Friendly competition in recreational games is something entirely different from what the hyper competitive nature of top level athleticism that even causes state level cheating programs. One is fun, the other is far removed from fun.
 
If your idea of fun requires women to be subjected to involuntary and invasive medical checks just to exclude some people, I don't care much for it.

Invasive medical checks? It's a straw man that comes up all over the place in various forms, and it's nonsense every single time.

We don't need an invasive medical check to know that Laurel Hubbard is a guy. Even in the case of Caster Semenya and people with her condition, all we need is a blood sample.

When it comes to what the pro-women side wants, we want to turn the clock all the way back to 2006. I don't recall invasive medical checks or bathroom genital inspections back then.

Stick to real arguments.

They are deprived only if you think they are somehow entitled to winning, which is not how competitive sports work I think. There is always a large chance that someone else scores higher.

It's an even larger chance if they're a girl and someone else is a boy.
 
Quite a few athletes who had every right to believe they were biological women were deprived of their passion and livelihood when invasive medical tests were used in an attempt to exclude transwomen, but I guess they don't count.

Quite a few? On some scale, I suppose so. However, that doesn't matter. Even if it's only one, it's still important to deal with and try to be as fair as possible.

I think it's really hard to come up with the best solution for intersex/DSD cases, and if that's who we were talking about, the conversation would be different.

Laurel Hubbard, Lia Thomas, Terry Miller....there's no intersex person there.

The fact that Caster Semenya exists has no bearing on whether Lia Thomas ought to go into the record books as the fastest woman 500 yard swimmer in US history. She shouldn't, and I don't even have to do an invasive medical test to figure that out.
 
The inconsideration and selfishness of Lia is breathtaking.

Yeah, I’m 95% on team trans for all this stuff, but anyone who is absolutely smashing the competition like this is IMO at best pretty thoughtless and at worst kind of a bully. Can these types not pick up a Marvel comic on why mutants don’t do pro sports where they have a superhuman advantage? They even tackle all the ‘but it’s important to me to get to do things all the other (group) get to do; aren’t I also fully (group)?’ stuff.

I do also feel this way about ‘normal’ mutant athletes, the guys that handily beat records and win every competition for ten years, like, quit that. There’s a few sports fans that begin to grumble when you always know who is going to win and you have to move your interest down to who is going to come second. But nobody really does more than grumble about it.

Ooh I take that back in one category, I don’t care if you are a mutant, you can blow away figure skating as much as you want.
 
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Quite a few athletes who had every right to believe they were biological women were deprived of their passion and livelihood when invasive medical tests were used in an attempt to exclude transwomen, but I guess they don't count.

This thread would be entirely different and a lot shorter if it were about intersex rights and accommodations. But it isn't. It's about people who don't have an intersex bone in their body, and have no right at all to believe they are biological women, demanding to be treated as biological women by people who have every right not to treat them that way.
 
This thread would be entirely different and a lot shorter if it were about intersex rights and accommodations. But it isn't. It's about people who don't have an intersex bone in their body, and have no right at all to believe they are biological women, demanding to be treated as biological women by people who have every right not to treat them that way.

Come now, if you're going to demand some candor and intellectual honesty, you can't just deny that this part is very much in contention.

In some jurisdictions, trans exclusionists very much don't have that right. Some they do, and in many it's an open question.
 
Quite a few athletes who had every right to believe they were biological women were deprived of their passion and livelihood when invasive medical tests were used in an attempt to exclude transwomen, but I guess they don't count.
No one needs invasive medical tests to exclude competitors like Lia Thomas and Laurel Hubbard, each of whom used to compete as males. It seems to me you've subtly changed the subject from those who transition to those born intersex.
 
Even in the case of Caster Semenya and people with her condition, all we need is a blood sample.

This one is interesting. Semenya is male, and has now fathered two children with their wife. Semenya doesn't present as a woman, they present as a man in clothing, carriage, etc. I understand there was some genital ambiguity at birth, and they were presented with a vaginal opening and treated as a female during childhood. But at this point, it seems pretty clear that Semenya is a male person, who at best identifies as a woman.

Which is perfectly fine for their personal and social lives, but not so fine when it comes to competing against females.
 
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Come now, if you're going to demand some candor and intellectual honesty, you can't just deny that this part is very much in contention.

In some jurisdictions, trans exclusionists very much don't have that right. Some they do, and in many it's an open question.

Fair enough. Here's how I see it:

First of all, is the right to not treat biological males as biological females actually "very much in contention"? My understanding is that the trans-inclusionist side emphasizes gender affirmation, not sexual affirmation.

Second, are there actually any jurisdictions where trans-exclusionists don't have the right to not treat biological males as biological females? My understanding is that even jurisdictions which recognize a right for transwomen to use women's spaces do so on the basis of gender identity, not biological sex.

Third, I have been arguing for some time that as a practical effect, transgender identity rights are a stalking horse for transsexual identity rights. But while I personally would say that this is in fact the point in contention, I'm a little surprise to see the same thing being claimed openly from the trans-inclusionist side. Is that really how you see it? This is a question of the right to be treated not as the opposite gender (whatever that means) but as the opposite sex (which has a clear biological meaning with practical implications in the real world)?

Fourth, more tersely, do you believe transwomen should have the right to be treated as the opposite sex?

Fifth, if so, do how far do you believe that right should extend? To the bedroom?
 
If your idea of fun requires women to be subjected to involuntary and invasive medical checks just to exclude some people, I don't care much for it.
It's clear that you don't know what you are talking about.

I don't know about Europe, but in most states in the U.S. a physical is required for participation in school sports and has been for decades. The purpose of that physical is not to exclude a class of people, but to ensure that the person is healthy enough for the sport. There is no blood test done, but the doctor will listen to your heart and lungs, check out your general physical condition and, at least on boys, check for hernia. (Grab balls, turn head and cough.)

No one regards this as particularly invasive. It's done by your family doctor. In the process, all the information generally required to determine sex is collected. (Some intersex conditions may not be detected, but that is not the topic.)

I've had kids of both sexes in go through this. It's done every year.
They are deprived only if you think they are somehow entitled to winning, which is not how competitive sports work I think. There is always a large chance that someone else scores higher.
No one has the right to win. But they do have the right to be competitive in their appropriate class. Classes are determined by the things that affect competitiveness. This includes weight classes in some sports, age groups in most, and sex in most.

The classes are not designed to exclude someone from participating. They are designed to include everyone in the class appropriate due to physical properties. A trans woman is not excluded. They are simply classified according to sex, not gender. Why? because sex affects competitiveness while gender does not.

A case can be made that someone who had transitioned to some point should qualify for the female division as hormones or surgery may have sufficiently abrogated the competitive advantage conferred by their sex. Those are, and should be individual decisions based upon meeting a criteria.

In other words, the "invasive" testing you mention is only required when voluntarily requesting an exception to the classification system.

Quite a few athletes who had every right to believe they were biological women were deprived of their passion and livelihood when invasive medical tests were used in an attempt to exclude transwomen, but I guess they don't count.
Those tests were not designed to include trans-women. They were designed to detect cheating via hormones and other PEDs. These tests are routine in most professional sports. Males are going to fail the criteria for the women's division due to natural hormone levels, so yes, it will detect sex.

But the bigger scandals, I believe, were along the lines of the East German women who were unknowingly given steroids by their government. The tests are to detect cheating. And of course, Lance Armstrong, Barry Bonds, etc. None of which had to do with trying to exclude trans athletes.
 
Friendly competition in recreational games is something entirely different from what the hyper competitive nature of top level athleticism that even causes state level cheating programs. One is fun, the other is far removed from fun.

Again, you are not the arbiter of what is fun and enjoyable for other people.

Mountain climbing looks miserable to me. Doesn't change the fact that others enjoy it.
Duck and deer hunting looks boring and miserable to me. My opinion has no bearing on the fact that others enjoy it.
Your opinion on competitive sports carries no weight with the millions who enjoy it both as participants and spectators.
 
If your idea of fun requires women to be subjected to involuntary and invasive medical checks just to exclude some people, I don't care much for it.

They are deprived only if you think they are somehow entitled to winning, which is not how competitive sports work I think. There is always a large chance that someone else scores higher.

Quite a few athletes who had every right to believe they were biological women were deprived of their passion and livelihood when invasive medical tests were used in an attempt to exclude transwomen, but I guess they don't count.

Wow. You really have no idea of competitive sport at all.
 
Friendly competition in recreational games is something entirely different from what the hyper competitive nature of top level athleticism that even causes state level cheating programs. One is fun, the other is far removed from fun.

It has nothing to do with trans or gender issues, but I wonder what you would think of Chess tournaments. I don't mean the championship Carlsen/Nepo match going on now, but just your plain old chess tournament held at the local library.

I started playing in them some time in my '40s, at the same time as my 7 year old son. I loved them. This was a board game where you were allowed to take very seriously.

My wife couldn't stand them. Even though her son was in them, she stopped going, because she just couldn't stand the hypercompetitive energy in the room. These were small tournaments that had no cash prizes, or very small ones. Rating points is what it was all about.

Like I say, not too much in the way of trans issues there, just an observation about what people think is fun. Some people couldn't stand the supercompetitive atmosphere. Others, like me, reveled in it. For what it's worth, US Chess Federation rules say that people should play according to gender identity if there is a women only section. If there is segregation in chess, which there usually is not, it is usually a "women" and an "open" section. "All girl" tournaments are reasonably common for kids. At those, it's no boys allowed, but the rules say, in so many words, if you say you're a girl, you're a girl.
 
Fifth, if so, do how far do you believe that right should extend? To the bedroom?

I don't understand. For the countries we're talking about most here, trans people already have all the rights in the bedroom as anyone else. They can sleep with anyone that will have them. Other than in some regressive places that criminalize certain sex acts and/or homosexuality, trans people don't have any special status in this regard.
 
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Obviously not. He’s talking about the cotton ceiling.

Trans people have every right in that regard already too. They can trash talk people who refuse to date them, as ridiculous at that may seem to others.

Surely you're not conflating "cotton ceiling" talk with some deranged view that trans people demand a right to compel others to sleep with them against their will. That would be a ridiculous strawman.
 
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