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Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

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Aber said:
Prosecution guidance
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/rape-and-sexual-offences-chapter-6-consent
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From what I can tell, the prosecution guidance implies that it is licit to deceive someone about your birth sex so long as your personal beliefs about your own gender identity are sincere. If this is right, then it's fascinating, if only b/c I'd've expected the law to take cognizance of the functional differences between an erection and a strap-on when it comes to the possibility of impregnation.
 
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d4m10n said:
From what I can tell, the prosecution guidance implies that it is licit to deceive someone about your birth sex so long as your personal beliefs about your own gender identity are sincere. If this is right, then it's fascinating, if only b/c I'd've expected the law to take cognizance of the functional differences between an erection and a strap-on when it comes to the possibility of impregnation.
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I took a quick glance and found myself trying to figure out what the heck they were talking about, because I just couldn't see the confusion. It seems like people would figure things out.

The only thing I could imagine was that maybe an artificial vagina seems a lot like the real thing?

Well, even if that's true, I can't understand how there is some connection to rape. I just couldn't read between the lines and figure out the real situation that had to be dealt with by the law.
 
d4m10n said:
From what I can tell, the prosecution guidance implies that it is licit to deceive someone about your birth sex so long as your personal beliefs about your own gender identity are sincere.
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I don't think it is that clear, as UK law is somewhat confused about sex and gender and has historically used them interchangeably:

eg “deception as to gender can vitiate consent” almost certainly means

“deception as to sex gender can vitiate consent”
 
Man wearing wig 'caught in female toilets taking photos of women'

I doubt this individual 'self identified as female', but it's the kind of case women point to when expressing their fears of it:


A man has been accused of dressing as a woman to enter a female bathroom in order to take photos of others in neighbouring cubicles.

The alleged incident occurred at the Aegean Shopping Park in Shanghai's Minhang District on Monday evening, Chinese outlet The Paper reported.

A cleaner suspected a problem inside the cubicle the man was allegedly in before asking someone exiting the male bathroom for help.
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https://au.news.yahoo.com/man-wearing-wig-caught-in-female-toilets-filming-women-050413169.html
 
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d4m10n said:
"You know, I actually don't know why some people are women and why some people are men. No one on this panel does, and anyone who claims to know the answer to that question is a liar." — Ellie Mae O’Hagan

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1460942680440061954
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Well, sweetie, it's because in some cases, a sperm carrying an X chromosome was fastest, and in others, a sperm carrying a Y chromosome was fastest. That's why some people are 'women' and some people are 'men'. To add a little bit more to the core concept... reproductive biology requires one member of each of those two sexes in order to make babies.
 
Meadmaker said:
The only thing I could imagine was that maybe an artificial vagina seems a lot like the real thing?
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"A lot" in this context applies if:

You've never seen the real thing, or

You don't ever look at them close up*

Like everything about trans women, it is a simulacrum. Unlike your like local plumber, a surgical specialist can't just dig a new drain.

In case you didn't know, trans breasts are also immediately visibly different - which is another reason why so many trans women get massive implants. "Natural", as in hormone-generated trans breasts are not like other breasts. While female breasts have an amazing diversity, trans breasts all conform to a particular phenotype, and no female I've seen has anything like them.

There's nothing wrong with either vagina or breasts in trans women, they're just different.

*NSFL if you're squeamish and definitely NSFC

They obviously do not taste the same either. Biology's a bitch.
 
And I must confess to a major mea culpa.

With all this focus on women's sport, trans gaining access to women-only spaces and refuges, I've missed the true injustice facing trans women, and something that needs to be changed right now to ensure their human rights are not impinged upon.

We all know that dead-naming is terrible.

Then whence opera?

Unlike the movies, cutting your nuts off doesn't make a baritone an alto, or a tenor a soprano. The baritone can now only take part in opera by misgendering herself. This is an outrage!

Opera must immediately change to allow any scale to play any part.

I long for the day when a bass Juliet is serenaded by a soprano Romeo.
 
dann said:
I didn't know that! What is the difference?
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I thought it might be a derail and was going to PM the answer, but it's clearly 100% on topic, because it's another reason why trans women are not, and can never be, women.

Female arousal secretions are manufactured within the vagina. Male secretions are manufactured in the prostate. The connection to the prostate, and the gland itself, aren't removed - for sound health reasons - in GRS, and science does yet have a mechanism for creating the secretive sections of the vagina.

This also means that if they really want to be treated 100% as women, trans women will be unable to seek help for prostate issues and cancer screening, because women cannot get prostate cancer.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
Well, sweetie, it's because in some cases, a sperm carrying an X chromosome was fastest, and in others, a sperm carrying a Y chromosome was fastest. That's why some people are 'women' and some people are 'men'.
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We can safely assume Ellie Mae O’Hagan didn't have the male/female reproductive binary in mind, but for the life of me I cannot even begin to speculate what she does mean by the claim "some people are women."
 
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d4m10n said:
From what I can tell, the prosecution guidance implies that it is licit to deceive someone about your birth sex so long as your personal beliefs about your own gender identity are sincere. If this is right, then it's fascinating, if only b/c I'd've expected the law to take cognizance of the functional differences between an erection and a strap-on when it comes to the possibility of impregnation.
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This whole business of gender identity being entirely in the head of the trans person, but also somehow binding on the thoughts and feelings of everyone else, makes my stomach turn.
 
The Atheist said:
I thought it might be a derail and was going to PM the answer, but it's clearly 100% on topic, because it's another reason why trans women are not, and can never be, women.

Female arousal secretions are manufactured within the vagina. Male secretions are manufactured in the prostate. The connection to the prostate, and the gland itself, aren't removed - for sound health reasons - in GRS, and science does yet have a mechanism for creating the secretive sections of the vagina.

This also means that if they really want to be treated 100% as women, trans women will be unable to seek help for prostate issues and cancer screening, because women cannot get prostate cancer.
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It appears that you're still unaware of the distinction made in contemporary medical science between a) gender and b) biological sex.

Thus a man (a trans man), who is a biological female, can get cervical cancer. And a woman (a trans woman), who is a biological man, can get prostate cancer.

Surely it couldn't be a deliberate "inability" on your part to understand this (rather central) point by now, could it.....?
 
theprestige said:
This whole business of gender identity being entirely in the head of the trans person, but also somehow binding on the thoughts and feelings of everyone else, makes my stomach turn.
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Yeah, I think exactly the same about homosexuality*. "How disgusting", I think to myself, "that straight men have to put up with the notion of other men finding them sexually attractive". It makes my stomach turn.

:rolleyes:



* In this thread, with certain of its participants, I feel the rather pathetic need to point out that I don't think this at all.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Well, sweetie, it's because in some cases, a sperm carrying an X chromosome was fastest, and in others, a sperm carrying a Y chromosome was fastest. That's why some people are 'women' and some people are 'men'. To add a little bit more to the core concept... reproductive biology requires one member of each of those two sexes in order to make babies.
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How do intersex people fit into your reckoning? :confused:
 
LondonJohn said:
Yeah, I think exactly the same about homosexuality*. "How disgusting", I think to myself, "that straight men have to put up with the notion of other men finding them sexually attractive". It makes my stomach turn.
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Straight men don't have to put up with it, though. If a gay man comes on to a straight man, the straight man is totally allowed to say, "that's disgusting, piss off".

Also, gender identity is not analogous to sexual attraction. Your idea of whether or not you're gay has no bearing on whether or not I'm attracted to you. Your idea of whether or not you're the gender I'm normally attracted should likewise have no bearing on whether I'm attracted to you. But for some reason, some people seem to think it does, or should.
 
LondonJohn said:
It appears that you're still unaware of the distinction made in contemporary medical science between a) gender and b) biological sex.
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As far as I can tell, "contemporary medical science" has no clue what gender actually is, or what it means, or what we should do about it. Also as far as I can tell, "contemporary medical science" has quite rightly been a lot more circumspect on this point than trans-activists would have us believe.
 
theprestige said:
This whole business of gender identity being entirely in the head of the trans person, but also somehow binding on the thoughts and feelings of everyone else, makes my stomach turn.
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Gender identity is determined in the first couple years of your life, if not at birth. If your thoughts can't change after age 2 or 3, you have some serious issues.
 
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