Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

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Emily's Cat said:
"Suggests it's possible" is a pretty serious stretch.

There have only been a very few successful *uterus* transplants from a deceased donor to a live female. Most attempts ended in the death of the recipient. Of those that survived the procedure, I believe only one has managed to carry a fetus to term. That person was unable to deliver vaginally, and a c-section was required.

Making it possible for a male to carry a fetus is far more complex than a *uterus* transplant. There's far more involved than just the baby-holder. There are complex interplays between the entire female reproductive tract and the endocrine system, the brain, and all the other organs in the abdomen. A female's body has evolved with looser connections between their internal organs, allowing them to move out of the way as their uterus expands. Hormones fluctuate to provide the appropriate balance of developmental phases and nutrients to the fetus. I'm skeptical of whether even a complete reproductive tract transplant would be sufficient to allow a male to carry a child.
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Agreed. It's still the stuff of science fiction. Maybe it always will be.
 
Ziggurat said:
That's not the question or the issue. That we do these things, and that they are not shameful things in and of themselves, doesn't mean that using them to label people isn't insulting.
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I will have a good laugh on the day that Cottonelle starts marketing their toilet paper to 'defecators'... in an effort to be inclusive of all people who defecate while also not offending people who don't defecate.
 
llwyd said:
Well, I can't answer for other people. (Though I would think that it's a very difficult position to defend and justify and that maybe is reflected with these wordy and unsatisfactory responses.) But for me selfidentification as the sole criteria in sports, changing rooms and toilets is rather a side issue of the broad political question of trans people rights and their identity in their everyday lifes. By far most of them take many, many more steps than merely just self-identify. And those are hard steps in very hostile circumstances.
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Which rights do you think merit the most attention?
 
LondonJohn said:
So if society replaced self-identification with some form of "tested" identification....

....how do you imagine that those tests would be able to differentiate between (for want of better words) a) people with "genuine" transgender identity and b) people with "false" or "deviously tricked" transgender identity? And how would people who'd passed the test be able to show that they'd passed? Perhaps a little certificate?


(I'm going to be charitable and assume you believe that there are at least some people with what might be described in this context as "genuine" transgender identity.....)
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:rolleyes: "Even with good benchmarks in place, some people could still lie... so let's just completely remove all of the benchmarks and pretend that everyone is completely and totally honest"

That's one of the more inane arguments I've seen so far.
 
LondonJohn said:
We're talking about gender, not (biological) sex. Seems like you haven't learned much at all from all the pages of this thread so far.
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No, Joe's question is still relevant, and has never been answered.

If Joe does NOT treat 'men' differently from 'women', then what exactly are they supposed to do in order to appease transgender people?
 
Meadmaker said:
You don't want that. I don't want that. No one wants that. You know no one wants that.
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Not true, transphobia is so potent that it is already the law in Florida that a medical exam can be demanded for student athletes:

A dispute regarding a student's sex shall be resolved
56 by the student's school or institution by requesting that the
57 student provide a health examination and consent form or other
58 statement signed by the student's personal health care provider
59 which must verify the student's biological sex. The health care
60 provider may verify the student's biological sex as part of a
61 routine sports physical examination by relying only on one or
62 more of the following:
63 1. The student's reproductive anatomy;
64 2. The student's genetic makeup; or
65 3. The student's normal endogenously produced testosterone
66 levels.
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https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2021/1475/BillText/c1/PDF

I imagine that cis-women will likely suffer more under this law than trans students, given the obvious path for abuse, but that's the price we pay for codifying anti-trans bigotry into law.

ETA: I mispoke, it is not yet law. It has passed the Florida House and seems to be on pace to not get voted on in the Senate. Hopefully this gross nonsense dies a quiet death, but it's hardly "nobody" that wants these invasive inspections of suspect girls in our school sports.

A contentious point in the House version is what happens when an athlete’s gender is questioned, suggesting that a student’s sex assigned at birth would be determined by a medical professional through three methods: a student’s genetic make-up, their testosterone levels, or their reproductive anatomy.

Athletes as young as elementary school-age might be subjected to “genital exams” and blood-tests in order to confirm the student is playing on the correct team, in a measure which critics of the bill referred to as “legislating sexual assault against children.”
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https://floridaphoenix.com/2021/04/...-hurdle-and-may-not-survive-the-2021-session/
 
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ponderingturtle said:
Just like people with poly cystic ovary syndrome will never be regarded as females either because it can cause testosterone levels high enough to disqualify them in sports. So not a woman.
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The range of testosterone with PCOS is <5 Nmol/L. They set the mark at the highest range that a female experiences with PCOS. Values above that are indicative of an adrenal or ovarian cancer.
 
ponderingturtle said:
What, we normalize hormones in women to promote fairness, why shouldn't we look for abnormal hormones in men and do the same? Why is one promoting fairness and the other some crazy thing?
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The low end of the normal range of testosterone in males is about 20 times the high end of the normal range of testosterone in females, and is double the high end of the range of testosterone in females with PCOS.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Not true, transphobia is so potent that it is already the law in Florida that a medical exam can be demanded for student athletes:



https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2021/1475/BillText/c1/PDF

I imagine that cis-women will likely suffer more under this law than trans students, given the obvious path for abuse, but that's the price we pay for codifying anti-trans bigotry into law.

ETA: I mispoke, it is not yet law. It has passed the Florida House and seems to be on pace to not get voted on in the Senate. Hopefully this gross nonsense dies a quiet death, but it's hardly "nobody" that wants these invasive inspections of suspect girls in our school sports.

https://floridaphoenix.com/2021/04/...-hurdle-and-may-not-survive-the-2021-session/
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Every single student, male and female and all variations thereof, already have to take a routine physical before being allowed to participate in sports.

The schools have copies. It is that exam that is referred to in the legislation.

No additional exams required, and no one wants any additional exams.
 
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JoeMorgue said:
The transgender closest is far more transparent than the gay closet, and the gay closet was always waaaaay more transparent then we acted like it was.

The "closet" was always more about plausible deniability than anything else.

Very, very few people are actually shocked when anyone comes out.
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Most transgender closets are made of glass, with a very bright light inside. Gay closets were always more of a beaded curtain - if you didn't actually look you wouldn't notice, but a glance in that direction was likely to be revealing.

Thus the complete lack of surprise when people came out. Some people disapproved, which is an awful thing, but very few people were ever surprised.
 
Meadmaker said:
Every single student, male and female and all variations thereof, already have to take a routine physical before being allowed to participate in sports.

The schools have copies.

No additional exams required, and no one wants any additional exams.
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Keep burying your head in the sand.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Most transgender closets are made of glass, with a very bright light inside. Gay closets were always more of a beaded curtain - if you didn't actually look you wouldn't notice, but a glance in that direction was likely to be revealing.

Thus the complete lack of surprise when people came out. Some people disapproved, which is an awful thing, but very few people were ever surprised.
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The revisionism of these statements is truly astounding. I've heard some whoppers in my time, but this actually knocks me on my ass.

Are we just supposed to pretend that, in the prior era, people getting outed to our broadly homophobic society was not, more often than not, an absolute disaster for them? People lost jobs, were disowned from their families and friends, accused of being sexual predators, prosecuted for criminal offenses, and were generally pushed to the fringes of society.

But yeah, everybody knew and it was no big deal /s
 
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ponderingturtle said:
But it is the logical extension. Can't let those fake girls compete it might give them the wrong ideas.
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Your tendency to extrapolate beyond the positions held leads you into error on a regular basis. Your extrapolations of other people's positions should not be confused with actual positions.

If genetic screening ever becomes normal and routine, then it is conceivable that the results of that screening might affect athletic participation. I don't have enough expertise to know if it ought to.
 
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