Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part III

[abaddon]

You have been told repeatedly it is a Kannad 406F - an automatically activated model.

Are you claiming Asser Koivisto, marine expert appointed by JAIC bods was making it all up in January 1995, when he had access to all of the specifications?


Mysteriously, the EPIRB's are now vanished, together with Koivisto's official report, according to YLE. [ibid].

Nope. The 406F model was a manual activation device only.

No amount of stamping your little feet will change that fact.

 

[abaddon]

Yes, I will take Captain Swoop any day as an expert in marine systems based on his demonstrated personal, hands-on navy experience over someone who sits in an office and directs the possibly relevant activities of others. He may attract the attention of officials because of his prominence in the field, but that doesn't necessarily give his testimony special weight as an expert.

Seconded. Our Captain Swoop definitely knows his naval onions, as well as a whole lot more to boot.

What is being demanded is that your knowledge, Swoop's, mine, everyone's must be dispensed with in favour of a bean counting, shiny arsed trousers desk pilot's assessment of how it ought to be.

 

[Andy_Ross]

I wonder why the secondary and tertiary sources are used rather than the primary source that is easily available to everyone?

 

[Axxman300]

I wonder why the secondary and tertiary sources are used rather than the primary source that is easily available to everyone?

Because our provocateur refuses to admit they are wrong on any single point.

The fact is the Estonia's signal buoys had to be manually switched on. The reason this did not happen boils down to two factors:

1. The crew didn't know they weren't automatic.

2. Not all the crew knew they weren't automatic and the few who did were negligent, or waited too long before attempting to activate them.

This part of the story underlines the piss-poor training of the key members of the crew. There was not conspiracy, only basic incompetence.

 

[Mojo]

I really don't understand why you insist to repeat this kind of text, when you have been shown wrong so many times?

Because there had been a couple of days with no posts, and everyone might have forgotten.

 

[JayUtah]

Seconded. Our Captain Swoop definitely knows his naval onions, as well as a whole lot more to boot.

What is being demanded is that your knowledge, Swoop's, mine, everyone's must be dispensed with in favour of a bean counting, shiny arsed trousers desk pilot's assessment of how it ought to be.

To be specific, and irrespective of the aim of your particular criticism here, the office worker to which I was referring is Assar Koivisto, the proffered expert. His practical expertise, if any, is unknown while Captain Swoops is not.

 

[Disbelief]

Because there had been a couple of days with no posts, and everyone might have forgotten.

Fringe reset, which is a common practice as noted multiple times in this thread.

 

[LondonJohn]

I never got to work on those, but I had a friend who worked at the base they were from but he was on EF-111s.

Ooh I have a related anecdote!! In 1986 I was still at (high) school but I was on a work experience placement in the Easter school holidays at an MOD facility just outside the town of Bicester.

While I was working there, regular aircraft noise was coming from the nearby RAF base at Upper Haywood, but it was low-level and from perhaps no more than three aircraft simultaneously. But I happened to be working late one evening, when the roar of many large jet engines started up, and just grew cumulatively louder and louder. We went outside and saw an enormous convoy of US aircraft - a mixture of large refuellers, F-111s and EF-111s (even in the dusk I could easily distinguish the EF-111s from the large receiver pod at the top of their vertical stabilisers) - taking off in very quick succession, grouping up, and heading south-east. We found out later that this had been the genesis of the US bombing attack on Libya.

 

[LondonJohn]

Because our provocateur refuses to admit they are wrong on any single point.

The fact is the Estonia's signal buoys had to be manually switched on. The reason this did not happen boils down to two factors:

1. The crew didn't know they weren't automatic.

2. Not all the crew knew they weren't automatic and the few who did were negligent, or waited too long before attempting to activate them.

This part of the story underlines the piss-poor training of the key members of the crew. There was not conspiracy, only basic incompetence.

Even people who might be considered (and who might consider themselves to be) well-trained can either freeze totally or panic or simply forget their training when they're confronted by a real-world emergency - as opposed to all the hypothetical and simulated "emergencies" that formed the basis of their training.

And this strange truth was undoubtedly a major factor in the move to mandate auto-activation EPIRBs in the wake of the Estonia disaster. The regulator's reaction was not along the lines of better training or more regular testing of that training. Rather, the Estonia disaster showed vividly that in real-world emergencies - especially truly existential events - there's vivid scope for human interventions to go wrong.

Making auto-activation EPIRBs mandatory was a recognition that for something that might turn out to be absolutely vital to locating and assisting a ship in grave danger, it's simply unacceptable to place the responsibility of switching on the EPIRB circuitry when an auto-activation solution is available and reliable.

 

[JayUtah]

We found out later that this had been the genesis of the US bombing attack on Libya.

I was living in Sicily at the time. I'm obviously (visually) American. Lots of people in Sicily have friends and relatives in Libya. When this happened, I went to Germany for a week to visit friends.

 

[zooterkin]

You were throwing your toys out of the pram because you failed miserably to try to wrongly convince people that Estonia had 'manually operated' buoys only.


Blatant lie, when the facts are available.

HS [ibid]

Your ‘supporting’ image says “hydrostatic release”. It does not say “hydrostatically activated”. Who is lying?

 

[Axxman300]

Even people who might be considered (and who might consider themselves to be) well-trained can either freeze totally or panic or simply forget their training when they're confronted by a real-world emergency - as opposed to all the hypothetical and simulated "emergencies" that formed the basis of their training.

And this strange truth was undoubtedly a major factor in the move to mandate auto-activation EPIRBs in the wake of the Estonia disaster. The regulator's reaction was not along the lines of better training or more regular testing of that training. Rather, the Estonia disaster showed vividly that in real-world emergencies - especially truly existential events - there's vivid scope for human interventions to go wrong.

Making auto-activation EPIRBs mandatory was a recognition that for something that might turn out to be absolutely vital to locating and assisting a ship in grave danger, it's simply unacceptable to place the responsibility of switching on the EPIRB circuitry when an auto-activation solution is available and reliable.

Agreed 100%.

Maybe I shouldn't knock the crew too much but in all the survivor accounts they are out of the picture, but the command crew and engineering team crapped the bed as far as I'm concerned. That list combined with the Estonia's floor plan would have made escape nearly impossible early on when things went bad, and it only got worse. And at some point the bridge was completely unserviceable, the men who stayed became trapped (they found an unopened life-raft there).

I don't think anyone was concerned about buoys, and making them automatic as a standard just makes sense.

 

[Vixen]

An EPIRB with an Integral GPS navigation receiver didn't become available until 1998

Be that as it may, Asser Koivsito, Jan 1995, JAIC marine expert and adviser, together with Rockwater divers Dec 1994, confirms Estonia had automatically activated hydrostatic Kannad 406F EPIRBs, which were missing, with just the hydrostatically triggered cabinet/casing left behind.

 

[Mojo]

Be that as it may, Asser Koivsito, Jan 1995, JAIC marine expert and adviser, together with Rockwater divers Dec 1994, confirms Estonia had automatically activated hydrostatic Kannad 406F EPIRBs, which were missing, with just the hydrostatically triggered cabinet/casing left behind.

Missing from where, and when?

 

[Vixen]

His expertise appears to consist of having founded a company that makes navigational equipment and other sea systems. As near as I can tell, his company does not make emergency systems. As near as I can tell, he has never himself navigated a ship or participated in sea rescues. As near as I can tell, he is a businessman, not a sailor.

Do you know him to be an expert? Or are you simply assuming he's an expert because he has been prominently quoted?

Yes, I will take Captain Swoop any day as an expert in marine systems based on his demonstrated personal, hands-on navy experience over someone who sits in an office and directs the possibly relevant activities of others. He may attract the attention of officials because of his prominence in the field, but that doesn't necessarily give his testimony special weight as an expert.

Asser Koivisto has highly specialist skills and knowledge:

Navielektro's origins
Navielektro was founded by Asser Koivisto in 1987. The company originally began as a three person endeavor, selling and installing navigation systems onboard vessels. Operations eventually expanded to include installations of ship bridges. In the mid 1990s, the company branched out to surveillance sensors and software, as the focus shifted from providing on-board navigational systems to developing sensors, maritime surveillance systems and vessel traffic management systems for control centers. The first radar manufactured by Navielektro was developed in 1994, and the company has continued to produce their own line of antennas and sensors ever since.

In 1996, Navielektro signed a contract with the Finnish Maritime Administration (now the Finnish Transport Agency) to help establish a VTS system for the Archipelago Sea. From this point onwards, the company began to focus mainly on development, maintenance and delivery of situational awareness systems. By the early 2000s, the entire coast of Finland was covered by VTS delivered by Navielektro.

https://www.navielektro.fi/history.html


Sounds very much like he has intricate expertise in naval/maritime intelligence.

 

[Vixen]

Nope. The 406F model was a manual activation device only.

No amount of stamping your little feet will change that fact.

Why do some posters think deliberate lying is an acceptable form of debate?

• The float free type (automatic activation):
• KANNAD 406 F/P: Container made of polyester with an internal membrane (CAL87).
• KANNAD 406 FH/PH: Container fitted with a HAMMAR release system (CAL 89).

Attached is the image of what it looks like. Compare and contrast with the one Koivisto has at his presentation.

 

[Vixen]

I wonder why the secondary and tertiary sources are used rather than the primary source that is easily available to everyone?

A primary source are things such as the distress call transcripts and the police statements from crew and survivors taken at the time, together with the first news reports/broadcasts.

A secondary and tertiary source are later spin and 'revised history'. A final report three years later is not by any definition a primary source. Useful for factual information, yes, where that information is full and complete. Where it is modified, incomplete, omitted, dubiously interpretated, then it is as liable to being analysed and critiqued as is any such report.

 

[Vixen]

Because our provocateur refuses to admit they are wrong on any single point.

The fact is the Estonia's signal buoys had to be manually switched on. The reason this did not happen boils down to two factors:

1. The crew didn't know they weren't automatic.

2. Not all the crew knew they weren't automatic and the few who did were negligent, or waited too long before attempting to activate them.

This part of the story underlines the piss-poor training of the key members of the crew. There was not conspiracy, only basic incompetence.

That is not correct. The ship's electrician was responsible for ensuring their correct operation as a routine preliminary part at the commencement of journey.

 

[Vixen]

To be specific, and irrespective of the aim of your particular criticism here, the office worker to which I was referring is Assar Koivisto, the proffered expert. His practical expertise, if any, is unknown while Captain Swoops is not.

Koivisto is highly expert. His company now has a contract to supply Ghana. When people across the globe want technological innovation, they look to Finland.

The early 2000's
Navielektro co-operated with the main Swedish actors in the field of AIS system technology, resulting in the development of the first system in the world fusing AIS and radar tracks. Collaboration with the Finnish Maritime Administration, the Southwestern Maritime District and the Finnish Defense Forces made it possible to realize this innovation in Finland, making the Finnish VTS system the first in the world to incorporate AIS, providing interaction between the VTS system and vessels. Navielektro’s operations further expanded to include general situational awareness services and related software in the year 2000.

In May 2004, the Swedish Saab TransponderTech announced the company would be partnering with Navielektro to promote products for the VTS and coastal surveillance systems market. Navielektro and Saab TransponderTech teamed up to offer VTMS and Coastal Surveillance Systems for maritime administrations and port authorities worldwide for several years. Since the year 2000 and onwards, Navielektro has provideded the Finnish Transport Agency, the Finnish Border Guard and the Finnish Navy with surveillance platforms.


Navielektro today
Navielektro is the leading supplier of VTS, Coastal Surveillance and Situational Awareness Systems for the Coast of Finland. The majority of the radars currently in operation along the Finnish coast have been provided by Navielektro, replacing FIKA-radars from the 70's. All of the Finnish agencies engaging in coastal surveillance (such as the Finnish Transport Agency, the Finnish Border Guard and the Finnish Navy) utilize radars and situational awareness systems manufactured by Navielektro. The VTMS and Coastal Surveillance System that Navielektro designed and delivered for the Finnish trilateral METO agencies is one of the largest and most sophisticated of its kind in the world.

https://www.navielektro.fi/history.html


Still want to claim that Captain_Swoop is more of an expert than Koivisto, who actually had the original specs of the epirbs and found an exact facsimile by which to do his presentation Jan1995? Someone who was actually 'there' and not sitting at a keyboard some 27 years later.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to correct username. Do not alter usernames in an attempt to insult or belittle other posters

 

[Jack by the hedge]

There's no way to tell from that photo of Koivisto with an EPIRB whether or not it's a model with an immersion switch.