Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part III

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Vixen said:
Heh. Anyone who frequented the London Soho folk circuit (Bunjies) might recognise the song. Similar vein to 'Goldwatch Blues' or 'Motor Cycle Song' (Guthrie).

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1) What has "West End Girls" got to do with what you were claiming (other than the tenuous fact that it mentions a certain geographic area (you're aware it's not even actually about the West End, don't you....?)). Was it an attempt to misdirect?

2) You're still no closer to providing supporting evidence for your (ludicrous and incorrect) claim wrt that phrase
 
Vixen said:
None of that cancels out the hole in the starboard before it sank.
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What "hole in the starboard before it sank"?

There was no such hole.

There was a hole in the starboard after the ship sank. Perhaps you're getting confused.
 
Vixen said:
None of that cancels out the hole in the starboard before it sank.
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It explains the hole in the starboard side.

If you want to convince anyone the hole was there before the Estonia sank you need better evidence than the mere fact that it's there now, because there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for its being there after the sinking.
 
Vixen said:
Heh. Anyone who frequented the London Soho folk circuit (Bunjies) might recognise the song. Similar vein to 'Goldwatch Blues' or 'Motor Cycle Song' (Guthrie).

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Does that pass for folk on the 'London Soho folk circuit'?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Does that pass for folk on the 'London Soho folk circuit'?
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Who would have thought one misheard lyric could spin out into such a weird digression? Oh, wait, I remember where I am now.

Anyway, it might be worth saying for the non-Brits that "yar boo sucks" as Molesworth frequently used it or "yah boo sucks to you" as I remember it from childhood has no connection at all to the more recent and much more vulgar use of "sucks" (as a verb, which the British version doesn't seem to be). It was just a kids saying, expressing contempt and lack of sympathy, typically towards the loser of some trivial contest. Very mild. At worst unkind.

Googling hints that before Molesworth it appeared in various forms in Just William and Billy Bunter stories, which pushes it back to the 1920s at least.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Who would have thought one misheard lyric could spin out into such a weird digression? Oh, wait, I remember where I am now.

Anyway, it might be worth saying for the non-Brits that "yar boo sucks" as Molesworth frequently used it or "yah boo sucks to you" as I remember it from childhood has no connection at all to the more recent and much more vulgar use of "sucks" (as a verb, which the British version doesn't seem to be). It was just a kids saying, expressing contempt and lack of sympathy, typically towards the loser of some trivial contest. Very mild. At worst unkind.

Googling hints that before Molesworth it appeared in various forms in Just William and Billy Bunter stories, which pushes it back to the 1920s at least.
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It was certainly in the Beano back in the 60s as I remember.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Who would have thought one misheard lyric could spin out into such a weird digression? Oh, wait, I remember where I am now.

Anyway, it might be worth saying for the non-Brits that "yar boo sucks" as Molesworth frequently used it or "yah boo sucks to you" as I remember it from childhood has no connection at all to the more recent and much more vulgar use of "sucks" (as a verb, which the British version doesn't seem to be). It was just a kids saying, expressing contempt and lack of sympathy, typically towards the loser of some trivial contest. Very mild. At worst unkind.

Googling hints that before Molesworth it appeared in various forms in Just William and Billy Bunter stories, which pushes it back to the 1920s at least.
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Thanks! i am learning so much about Britain from this thread.
 
Vixen said:
None of that cancels out the hole in the starboard before it sank.
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But this is presumptuous and inconsistent.

You constantly point out that no one saw the ramp fallen and conclude it hadn't. Did anyone see that hole?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
 
phiwum said:
But this is presumptuous and inconsistent.

You constantly point out that no one saw the ramp fallen and conclude it hadn't. Did anyone see that hole?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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From a Swedish newspaper:

Early in the morning of September 28, 1994, the phone rang at the home of the diver Håkan Bergmark, a reserve officer in the navy. It is the navy's rescue service on Muskö that asks him to be prepared to step in as a diver at short notice due to the Estonia disaster.

He does not hear anything for a number of days, but when he talks to other diving colleagues, he realizes that they have also received the same order to be on standby. Bergmark's military career began in the late 1970s with an 18-month diving training under the auspices of the navy. He eventually became associated with KSI, the Office of Special Collection, an organization under MUST, Sweden's military intelligence service. KSI was previously called SSI, the Section for Special Collection, which in turn was a successor to IB, a long-unknown intelligence activity in Sweden that had a close connection to the Social Democratic Party.

[---]

Håkan Bergmark sees two dead people during his dives, the other divers see significantly more. In the sea waters of northern Europe, there may sometimes be mines from the Second World War, but this hole had not been made by an explosion from the outside, the hole had instead exploded from the inside and out. Bergmark's personal experience of the hole in the hull is that a bomb exploded on the car deck and that this explosion sank the ship. His firm belief is that it is about sabotage.

He has a hard time saying how big the hole is, as it is difficult to get an overview due to the poor visibility, but it is quite possible for him to get through the hole with the diving equipment on.

It is estimated that it is an elongated hole, 4-5 meters long. Håkan Bergmark and the other divers also hear conversations on deck where it is suggested that those responsible will never tell the truth.

They hear phrases like, "Bring the tapes here!" and "What are the tapes?", but only hear one side of the telephone dialogue. [---]
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Swedish Newspaper 2000

"Håkan Bergmark, 41, from Stockholm was one of the first who dived down to the "Estonia". He says that he saw and filmed a big hole in the side of the ship. He did not consider it much at the time. 'It wasn't my task to find the cause of accident. But when the Final Report of the Commission was issued many years later I was very surprised', says Bergmark, who today would like to forget all about the "Estonia". Two of the four other divers, who were down together with Bergmark, do not want to comment on the "Estonia" at all."
Fredrik Engström, Swedish daily Expressen 22 August 2000
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Finnish newspaper reported the hole in the side 1997.

Kaleva reported on Estonia's strange side rupture already in 1997: "Finnish crew warned of Estonia's mistakes"
As early as November 1997, Kaleva reported on controversial information about Estonia's sinking. https://www.kaleva.fi/kaleva-uutisoi-estonian-oudosta-kylkirepeamasta-jo/2942931
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It is well documented:

Kaleva reported on the rupture of the Estonian side in 1997 - “A rather large rupture was found in the wreck on the zero deck, where the sauna and swimming pool were located”
In addition, a news story decades ago states that the Finnish crew that preceded the Estonians would have noticed serious defects in Estonia as early as 1997, but they were never corrected.

<Snip>

The newspaper Kaleva reports that it reported that the Estonian side was torn in 1997.

“In the video recordings received by the shipyard, a rather large rupture was found on the right side of the Estonian wreck. on the zero deck with sauna and pool. Above the level was first the deck with its cabs and then the car deck, ”Kaleva wrote decades ago.

The story interviewed the then German shipyard Meyer Werft's chief researcher, sea captain Werner Hummel . Meyer Werft built Estonia in 1980.

The Finnish crew was reported to have detected serious defects
According to Kaleva's news from decades ago, Hummel considered the rupture found on Estonia's side to be a "complete mystery".

- I don't know anything about it, but someone must know something about it, maybe official researchers. The exact size of the hole is difficult to determine. However, a lot of water spilled out of it quickly and had to tilt, Hummel said in 1997, according to Kaleva.

At the time, Kaleva's story also said that the Finnish crew that had preceded the Estonians had noticed serious defects in Estonia as early as 1992, but they were never corrected. According to the magazine, this information was also based on the research results revealed by Meyer Werft.
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IL

If this hole was 'just a stress fracture' why didn't the JAIC say so, instead of pretending it didn't exist?
 
Vixen said:
From a Swedish newspaper:



Swedish Newspaper 2000



Finnish newspaper reported the hole in the side 1997.



It is well documented:

IL

If this hole was 'just a stress fracture' why didn't the JAIC say so, instead of pretending it didn't exist?
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Because it wasn't there when the ship sank.
 
Vixen said:
From a Swedish newspaper:



Swedish Newspaper 2000



Finnish newspaper reported the hole in the side 1997.



It is well documented:

IL

If this hole was 'just a stress fracture' why didn't the JAIC say so, instead of pretending it didn't exist?
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But that wasn't prior to the sinking and so isn't evidence that the hole was the cause of the sinking unless we can eliminate the possibility that the hole was instead a result of the sinking.
 
Vixen said:
If this hole was 'just a stress fracture' why didn't the JAIC say so, instead of pretending it didn't exist?
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Seriously? After all this time?

The JAIC couldn't have seen the damage to the starboard beam at the time it did its survey of the wreck, because.... the ship was resting on that damage at the time it did its survey of the wreck.

Please explain how the JAIC investigation could possibly have even seen that damage - let alone explained its cause - when that damage was completely masked from view in 1994-96.
 
LondonJohn said:
Seriously? After all this time?

The JAIC couldn't have seen the damage to the starboard beam at the time it did its survey of the wreck, because.... the ship was resting on that damage at the time it did its survey of the wreck.

Please explain how the JAIC investigation could possibly have even seen that damage - let alone explained its cause - when that damage was completely masked from view in 1994-96.
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The Swedish government outsourced the diving recce and the JAIC should have had access to the video. The original video which comprised over 17 hours footage IIRC was reduced down to about two and a half hours and the Estonians and Finns denied access to it and other documents. The survivors' testimonies were heavily edited by a JAIC-appointed psychologist, Bengt Shlager (_sp?) who himself resigned in protest, the JAIC had to base its entire report on former-PM Carl Bildt's early announcement, 'the accident is a replica of that of The Herald of Free Enterprise but, um, ah, it has a bow visor, so that must have fallen off first and took with it the car ramp, yes, that's right, it was just like the The Herald of Free Enterprise and um, ah, it must have been some kind of, erm, freak wave wot dunnit'.

This was some sixteen hours after the sinking and about three weeks before the bow visor was found, even though by 8 Oct 1994, sonar images picked up the outline of...a bow visor...immediately below the bulbous bow visor...yet, the JAIC announced 9 October 1994, the bow visor 'has not yet been found'. Let that sink in.

Rockwater did the dive early December 1994.
 
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