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Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part III

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AFT. The windows, doors and panels on the AFT. You know, the area that runs parallel to the stern.





The JAIC did not say it was to the left or to the right. Just 'aft'.
Once again you interpret something in your own way and gallop off, hell for leather.

Aft just means toward the rear of the ship. It doesn't mean only such windows as face towards the rear of the ship. That is an invention in your own head.

Look at the profile drawing of the Estonia. Where are the large windows on deck 4? Aft. The forward windows are smaller cabin windows.

Clearer now? The big windows were weaker. The big windows were aft.
 
This is *your interpretation* of a secondhand report of what an investigator said. And you have a poor track record of correctly grasping what people actually mean in this case. What exactly does his finding contradict about the JAIC report? *Your* claim is that it contradicts the JAIC's assumption that the car deck doors must have failed. Well *show us* the JAIC's claim that the car deck doors must have failed or get off your high horse.

If you are not capable of making the leap to infer that the windows the JAIC say were smashed by the sea and then allowed the sea to flood in were the ones which were dipping into the sea due to the list and facing the oncoming waves as the ship drifted, and not the ones on the sheltered side of the ship which were being lifted ever higher away from the water by the list, then why would we listen to any of your confused wot-I-reckon at all?

And it's the starboard side. The port side windows were the high up, sheltered and not-in-the sea ones. The starboard ones were the low down, pounded by waves, ever-more-underwater ones.

Just to fully father-Dougal the point, the water came in through the windows which were *in* the water, and not through the windows which were far away from the water.

Look. Let me give you a possible reason the JAIC avoid saying 'aft starboard windows and panelling broke when the ship was at 40°', - because it does not at any point - it is because IMV it knew perfectly well that had the windows and panels smashed, the turbulent seawater would have replaced the air in the higher superstructure, namely Decks 4 and 5 first, and the vessel would have capsized within minutes (as did The Herald of Free Enterprise).

It was aware of this anomaly, hence to give the ship a slower time to sink, they propose it was the aft windows that broke (and the Rockwater divers of Dec 1994 unwittingly confirm that the aft windows and dividers were not broken at all.

This is because there is no way the Estonia could have floated on her superstructure with all the windows, doors and panelling smashed for a further 27 minutes!!!

12.6.1
According to the hydrostatic calculations, a continuously increasing amount of water on the car deck would make the aft windows of deck 4 the first possible flooding point to other areas. Soon thereafter the windows and the aft entrance doors of deck 5 would also be submerged. A little less than 2,000 t of water on the car deck would be sufficient to bring the first flooding points down to the mean water surface. In this condition the list would be about 35° . The lowest corner of the ramp opening would here be still a little above the mean water surface.

As soon as water was free to enter the accommodation decks all residual stability would be impaired and the ship in practice lost. Without an intact superstructure above deck 4, the largest possible equilibrium heel angle before a complete capsize would be 40° . This condition would be exceeded with about 2,000 t of water on the car deck.

So, at 40° the windows and breakables on Deck 4 and 5 did so according to the JAIC.

13.2.6
During the port turn water continued to enter the car deck and the list increased to 20-30 degrees where the vessel for some minutes stabilised as the water inflow decreased. By about 0120 hrs all four main engines had stopped, at intervals of a few minutes, starting with the port side engines, due to lack of lubricating oil pressure. The main generators stopped about five minutes later.

After the main engines stopped, the ESTONIA drifted with a list of about 40 degrees and the starboard side towards the waves. Water continued to enter the car deck through the bow but at a significantly lower rate. Waves were pounding against the windows on deck 4. Window panels and aft doors broke, allowing flooding of the accommodation to start. As the flooding progressed, the list and the trim by the stern increased and the vessel started to sink. At a list of about 80 degrees the bridge was partly flooded. This happened shortly after 0130 hrs as indicated by a clock in the chartroom whose hands had stopped at 2335 hrs UTC. The emergency generator stopped at about the same time but the accumulators supplied power for limited lighting. The sinking continued, stern first, and the vessel disappeared from the surface of the sea at about 0150 hrs.

Note, the JAIC manages to specify the starboard side, above. So the list of 40° happened at 1:20, and windows and dividers were smashed on Deck 4, immediately, when the main engines stopped, and flooding was complete at 80° circa 1:30am. (This would be when the last of the crew, Sillaste, escaped from the engine room via the funnel stairs.)

So in other words, because it stretches credulity to claim the 15tonne Estonia floated on its smashed superstructure for an incredible half an hour (when The Herald of Free Enterprise capsized within a matter of four minutes of leaving port), the JAIC reverts to the vague 'aft' windows and panellings, but even then, the Rockwater divers report contradicts this claim.


A ship cannot possibly float on its superstructure for half an hour with all its windows and dividers smashed as the JAIC claims. It seems from the latest expedition in September, the doors and windows were not smashed at all. The vessel sank the same way as the Wilhelm Gustloff, with its hull stricken and the [superstructure] car deck relatively intact, is the almost certain probability.
 
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You posted all that to cover for your not knowing the difference between Aft and Stern?

Also, how does a small hole above the waterline towards the forward part of the ship cause the aft machinery spaces to flood?

Also, do you now accept that the HOFE had watertight bulkheads in the hull?
 
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You posted all that to cover for your not knowing the difference between Aft and Stern?

The point being made was that the JAIC were obsfuscating exactly where it claimed all these windows and doors smashed, so it erred on the safe side by saying 'aft' instead of 'aft starboard'. The aft windows would also mean those facing the stern.
 
No, it was not 'obfuscating' anything.

It says the ship was listing to starboard and after the power was lost was broadside on to the sea with the starboard side in to the waves.
It was also sinking by the stern as the machinery spaces flooded.
 
You posted all that to cover for your not knowing the difference between Aft and Stern?

Also, how does a small hole above the waterline towards the forward part of the ship cause the aft machinery spaces to flood?

Also, do you now accept that the HOFE had watertight bulkheads in the hull?

Then you need to correct wikipedia because it is wiki that says it did not.

For the record, before you do:

The eight-deck car and passenger ferry was owned by Townsend Thoresen, designed for rapid loading and unloading on the competitive cross-channel route, and there were no watertight compartments.
wiki
 
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Wikipedia is not the source you should rely on. It is useful as a starting point for further investigation. It has a link to the report.

Why should I be the one to correct it? I didn't rely on it.
 
...
A ship cannot possibly float on its superstructure for half an hour with all its windows and dividers smashed as the JAIC claims. It seems from the latest expedition in September, the doors and windows were not smashed at all. The vessel sank the same way as the Wilhelm Gustloff, with its hull stricken and the [superstructure] car deck relatively intact, is the almost certain probability.

My bolding.

They make no such claim.

If I say "Cars crashed in the icy conditions" I'm not suggesting that all the cars crashed, just that crashes occurred.
 
Look. Let me give you a possible reason the JAIC avoid saying 'aft starboard windows and panelling broke when the ship was at 40°', - because it does not at any point ...

Let me give you a possible reason they do actually say all of that with the exception of using the word "starboard". It's because it's so utterly obvious it doesn't need saying. The side the water came in was the side which was in the water, and not the side which was not in the water.

Not saying "starboard" does not conceal any gotcha about water flooding in on decks 4 and 5. On the contrary, the JAIC are absolutely saying decks 4 and 5 are indeed where water flooded in as the windows exposed to the sea failed (and those were the ones on the starboard side, if you remember).

You want us to take your word for it that that ship in that situation would then have rolled right over and floated upside down. Well, no. I'm absolutely not going to take your word for that. You thought a rowing boat or viking longship in a similar capsize would do that too and even I with no expertise whatsoever can smell what horse **** that is.
 
Look. Let me give you a possible reason the JAIC avoid saying 'aft starboard windows and panelling broke when the ship was at 40°', - because it does not at any point - it is because IMV it knew perfectly well that had the windows and panels smashed, the turbulent seawater would have replaced the air in the higher superstructure, namely Decks 4 and 5 first, and the vessel would have capsized within minutes (as did The Herald of Free Enterprise).

It was aware of this anomaly, hence to give the ship a slower time to sink, they propose it was the aft windows that broke (and the Rockwater divers of Dec 1994 unwittingly confirm that the aft windows and dividers were not broken at all.

This is because there is no way the Estonia could have floated on her superstructure with all the windows, doors and panelling smashed for a further 27 minutes!!!



So, at 40° the windows and breakables on Deck 4 and 5 did so according to the JAIC.



Note, the JAIC manages to specify the starboard side, above. So the list of 40° happened at 1:20, and windows and dividers were smashed on Deck 4, immediately, when the main engines stopped, and flooding was complete at 80° circa 1:30am. (This would be when the last of the crew, Sillaste, escaped from the engine room via the funnel stairs.)

So in other words, because it stretches credulity to claim the 15tonne Estonia floated on its smashed superstructure for an incredible half an hour (when The Herald of Free Enterprise capsized within a matter of four minutes of leaving port), the JAIC reverts to the vague 'aft' windows and panellings, but even then, the Rockwater divers report contradicts this claim.


A ship cannot possibly float on its superstructure for half an hour with all its windows and dividers smashed as the JAIC claims. It seems from the latest expedition in September, the doors and windows were not smashed at all. The vessel sank the same way as the Wilhelm Gustloff, with its hull stricken and the [superstructure] car deck relatively intact, is the almost certain probability.

How you twist peoples words. It really is something to behold. And you love your little mantras like "a ship cannot float on its superstructure". It's really becoming this thread's "jet fuel cannot melt steel beams".

I really cannot be bothered to pick through every little twist here to untangle your disingenuity with stuff like "all its windows and dividers smashed as the JAIC claims" vs "the doors and windows were not smashed at all" but everyone can see the false narrative you're peddling.
 
Then you need to correct wikipedia because it is wiki that says it did not.

For the record, before you do:
The eight-deck car and passenger ferry was owned by Townsend Thoresen, designed for rapid loading and unloading on the competitive cross-channel route, and there were no watertight compartments.

wiki


That’s in the lead of the page, which is supposed to summarise the article, and so doesn’t need to cite a source. The sourced passage of the article that it seems to be summarising actually says, “Unlike other ships, which are subdivided into watertight compartments, the vehicle decks of RORO vessels are normally contiguous: any flooding on these decks would allow the water to flow the length of the ship” (my emphasis).
 
Look. Let me give you a possible reason the JAIC avoid saying 'aft starboard windows and panelling broke when the ship was at 40°', - because it does not at any point - it is because IMV it knew perfectly well that had the windows and panels smashed, the turbulent seawater would have replaced the air in the higher superstructure, namely Decks 4 and 5 first, and the vessel would have capsized within minutes (as did The Herald of Free Enterprise).

It was aware of this anomaly, hence to give the ship a slower time to sink, they propose it was the aft windows that broke (and the Rockwater divers of Dec 1994 unwittingly confirm that the aft windows and dividers were not broken at all.

This is because there is no way the Estonia could have floated on her superstructure with all the windows, doors and panelling smashed for a further 27 minutes!!!



So, at 40° the windows and breakables on Deck 4 and 5 did so according to the JAIC.



Note, the JAIC manages to specify the starboard side, above. So the list of 40° happened at 1:20, and windows and dividers were smashed on Deck 4, immediately, when the main engines stopped, and flooding was complete at 80° circa 1:30am. (This would be when the last of the crew, Sillaste, escaped from the engine room via the funnel stairs.)

So in other words, because it stretches credulity to claim the 15tonne Estonia floated on its smashed superstructure for an incredible half an hour (when The Herald of Free Enterprise capsized within a matter of four minutes of leaving port), the JAIC reverts to the vague 'aft' windows and panellings, but even then, the Rockwater divers report contradicts this claim.


A ship cannot possibly float on its superstructure for half an hour with all its windows and dividers smashed as the JAIC claims. It seems from the latest expedition in September, the doors and windows were not smashed at all. The vessel sank the same way as the Wilhelm Gustloff, with its hull stricken and the [superstructure] car deck relatively intact, is the almost certain probability.


Make up your mind: was the sinking suspicious because it happened too fast, or was it suspicious because it happened too slowly?
 
No. When the JAIC and Rockwater are referring to the aft they are talking about the stern area: you know, the part that sank first? Yet the divers arrived and found they had to break the windows and doors by means of marlin spikes, hammers and oxy-acetyline cutters.

Penny dropped now?


No. The stern is the back bit. "Aft" means nothing more or less than "towards the rear of the ship".

If they'd been referring to windows/doors along the "back bit" of the ship, they'd have written "stern".

You don't understand maritime terminology. It's more and more embarrasing. Even the graphic you chose shows you perfectly clearly what the distinction is. You don't know what you're talking about. And it's increasingly tiresome having to correct you.

Do. Some. Proper. Research. Before. Making. Incorrect. Claims.


ETA: Ninja'd by many other posters!
 
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For the umpty-ninth time, neither they or the Rockwater guys mention the starboard. They clearly state it was the aft windows and doors, referring to the stern area, or they would have said 'starboard' or 'port'.

Just because it might seem intuitively obvious to you that if the boat tips to starboard then these are the windows that broke. However, we were discussing whether the JAIC were correct to assume that the pressure of water ingressing via the bow caused the windows and doors on the aft fourth and fifth decks to break.

Stop substituting the JAIC's words for your own.


Oh bloody hell. You don't know what you're talking about.
 
The JAIC didn't say that did they? They didn't say starboard aft they said the aft every time, as did Rockwater, who were very specific.

These are the aft windows and doors of a cruise ferry.


No. They're the stern windows.

You don't know what you're talking about. You're way, way out of your depth in this debate.

Learn some maritime terminology. OK?
 
Just to fully father-Dougal the point, the water came in through the windows which were *in* the water, and not through the windows which were far away from the water.


It's almost pitiful that this needs to be spelled out to a certain poster in this thread. It's yet another demonstration of a fundamental inability to comprehend even the most basic things related to this disaster.
 
The point being made was that the JAIC were obsfuscating exactly where it claimed all these windows and doors smashed, so it erred on the safe side by saying 'aft' instead of 'aft starboard'. The aft windows would also mean those facing the stern.


No. It would not. Those windows facing the stern are the stern windows.

You don't know what you're talking about. Even after this has all now been repeatedly explained to you. That's a special kind of factual illiteracy.
 


These are the large windows on decks 4 and 5. They are the ones which the JAIC believe were broken in by the sea.

Note that they're aft.
 
Look. Let me give you a possible reason the JAIC avoid saying 'aft starboard windows and panelling broke when the ship was at 40°', - because it does not at any point - it is because IMV it knew perfectly well that had the windows and panels smashed, the turbulent seawater would have replaced the air in the higher superstructure, namely Decks 4 and 5 first, and the vessel would have capsized within minutes (as did The Herald of Free Enterprise).


What the hell is this constant batcrap about "replaced the air in the... superstructure"? Is this a mantra of Bjorkman's or something. Because it's demonstrative of a hearty dose of scientific illiteracy when it comes to the reasons why/when ships sink. I've explained this to you in some detail already. Yet you plough on regardless with this nonsense.


It was aware of this anomaly, hence to give the ship a slower time to sink, they propose it was the aft windows that broke (and the Rockwater divers of Dec 1994 unwittingly confirm that the aft windows and dividers were not broken at all.

This is because there is no way the Estonia could have floated on her superstructure with all the windows, doors and panelling smashed for a further 27 minutes!!!


Are you seriously claiming (and in fact you clearly are claiming) that the JAIC investigators, because they had some sort of "need" to lie about the cause of the sinking, also therefore actively lied in what they said they'd found in their survey of the wreck?

Do you not realise (and in fact you clearly do not recognise) how far down the rabbit hole you are by now?


At least it's incontrovertible by now that your dishonesty in claiming to be "merely reporting what some other groups/people are saying" has been fully exposed. You're a conspiracy theorist yourself. And because a) you think you're acting in a "noble cause" (AKA "will nobody think of the poor grieving families?!"), and b) you think your claims are reasonable and evidence-based - when in fact none of these things is true - you'll probably never be able to reconcile yourself with the magnitude of your wrongness.
 
For the umpty-ninth time, neither they or the Rockwater guys mention the starboard. They clearly state it was the aft windows and doors, referring to the stern area, or they would have said 'starboard' or 'port'.

...

Stop substituting the JAIC's words for your own.

Your own quote was "window panels and aft doors". When did it become aft windows and doors?

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