Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[LondonJohn]

What are your thoughts on the protest linked upthread?

Bunch of agitators who are doing themselves and their professed cause no good at all.

Why? Why are you interested in what I think about it? Were you expecting* me to have reflexively supported their actions? Why otherwise would you have jumped in to ask my opinion on it?

Interesting. Interesting indeed. Happy now?


ETA: * or hoping, maybe...?

 

[LondonJohn]

Related to my previous post....

....there seems to be a strange reliance on individual incidents by posters supporting a particular position in this thread. With the implication that these individual incidents somehow lend compelling support to that position. As opposed to, y'know, looking at medium- and long-term trends, and excluding rogue outliers. Which is the correct way of trying to evaluate these sorts of issues.

 

[Manger Douse]

Yes, exactly. Plus I was satirising the idea that (as was clearly implied in the post to which I'd replied) the school board had effectively ordered the police to "arrest, drag away and prosecute" a member of the public simply because the school board were pissed off with him - and that the police would have accepted this sort of order from the school board.....

You agree he was convicted on rather petty charges though, and that's not a big deal?

 

[d4m10n]

Why otherwise would you have jumped in to ask my opinion on it?

Some activists are telling females that (1) they belong in female spaces and (2) if the females don't like it, they can suck a dick. Ever wonder where "anti-trans sentiment" comes from? There you go.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I recall (the rapper) Lil' Nas X being labeled transphobic when he (in response to a question about whether he was faking being gay), tweeted, "Nah, I just like [familiar form of Richard]."

Yep. Because they are exclusively sexually attracted to people with penises, they were harassed and labeled as transphobic. It's ridiculous. There aren't that many openly gay black artists out there... and one of the few is getting harassed and targeted because... he doesn't have any interest in vaginas regardless of how the person attached to that organ identifies.

 

[LondonJohn]

You agree he was convicted on rather petty charges though, and that's not a big deal?

No. I'll start again.

1) Someone in this thread wrote that the school board had effectively ordered the local police to "arrest, drag away, and prosecute" a member of the public because he had been annoying them (the school board) with his line of questioning.

2) I responded, using a pretty common literary device (satire). The underlying meaning of my post was that a) it was hugely improbable that the police would have "arrested, dragged away, and prosecuted" a member of the public purely on the say-so of the school board, and b) it was hugely improbable that this man would have been "arrested, dragged away, and prosecuted" simply because he'd been asking annoying questions of the school board.


Your point on the charges of which this man was ultimately convicted.... is irrelevant to my argument above. In addition, I can assure you that police frequently (and entirely lawfully) intervene forcibly to remove people whom they deem a threat to public order... and that these people ultimately don't get convicted of anything constituting a "serious" crime. Many of them don't even get charged with anything: once they've been removed from the situation, and warned about their future conduct, the best solution may be to release them without charge. But that doesn't mean that the police weren't acting entirely correctly (using their own judgement, not anyone else's) to forcibly remove those people from volatile situations.

 

[LondonJohn]

Some activists are telling females that (1) they belong in female spaces and (2) if the females don't like it, they can suck a dick. Ever wonder where "anti-trans sentiment" comes from? There you go.

I've already given you my opinion on this*. And I repeat: were you expecting - or hoping - that I would endorse/support these people's actions? And you think it's correct/appropriate to formulate an opinion on transgender rights based upon this (outlier) incident, do you? Because if we're playing that little game, I can easily find you plenty of other isolated incidents of disgraceful acts/opinions against transgender people.

But we don't play that game now, do we? Because any attempt at serious debate doesn't involve those sort of stupid, childish, reductive antics, do they? Or maybe from your perspective they do?


* This isolated incident.

 

[Emily's Cat]

There have been a lot of claims that ciswomen shouldn't be uncomfortable with the presence of transwomen in private spaces such as changing rooms and bathrooms.

Well, apparently some trans people feel unsafe with the presence of cismen in their "personal space".

Male Workers Allowed Into Baldwin, Unsettling Residents

"In general, I am very averse to people entering my personal space. This anxiety was compounded by the fact that the crew would be strangers, and they were more than likely to be cisgender men."​

Who knows how this person will be able to cope with the real world, which seems to be teaming with cismen.

Perhaps Fray-Witz is a transman who is a survivor of rape?

If they are a male person feeling violated about male people being allowed into their space... I just don't know how to feel about that other than really confused.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I suspect that certain, uhmmm, "advocacy" groups have constant global searches in place for anything that reinforces their prejudices.... and they don't much care about the quality or integrity of the source.

It's a link to an op-ed written by that person. It's in their own words. Why would you question this person's integrity or quality in writing their own op-ed from their own perspective, relating their own feelings?

 

[Emily's Cat]

On the other hand, I really don't get this. First, since I'm not an expert, what exactly is a "gay male space"? Are they just talking about things like gay bars? Because it was my understanding that straight men and even women could gain access to such spaces, even if they would be regarded as outsiders while there. Or are they talking about more... intimate spaces? And what's the rationale behind it? It can't really be about safety. Are vaginas really that gross to them? Even more so than just ugly people? Because even if you're a gay man, I would have to think that there would still be some other men you would find gross. Honestly just confused here.

I am not a gay male, but I have friends who are

About a year ago, I learned that apparently gay males have some spaces and clubs that regularly involve a lot of just totally random sex with other males. The entire purpose of the space is to have sex with random other gay males. That would be a space where I think it's perfectly reasonable to want to exclude people with vaginas, regardless of their gender identity. They simply don't have the required equipment to take part.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes, exactly. Plus I was satirising the idea that (as was clearly implied in the post to which I'd replied) the school board had effectively ordered the police to "arrest, drag away and prosecute" a member of the public simply because the school board were pissed off with him - and that the police would have accepted this sort of order from the school board.....

One might wonder why a parent might get a bit angry when another adult in the room claims that their female child is lying about having been raped... It's really a mystery.

But no, no. Please carry on blaming the parent of the raped teenage female for being 'disruptive' when they were told their child was probably lying about it, and the school board insisted that it hadn't happened. You seem to have a really solid moral platform for this. 'Right side of history' and all that.

 

[d4m10n]

This isolated incident.

You think this is the first time females were told to suck it for daring to claim their own spaces?

And you think it's correct/appropriate to formulate an opinion on transgender rights based upon this (outlier) incident, do you?

Had you put the word "activists" in there after "rights" then I'd consider it yet another data point.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Some activists are telling females assembled to discuss violence against females that (1) they belong in female spaces and (2) if the females don't like it, they can suck a dick. Ever wonder where "anti-trans sentiment" comes from? There you go.

Added a bit more context here.

Also, it's not anti-trans sentiment. It's anti-gender-ideology sentiment. There are lots of transgender people out there, and most of them are perfectly cromulent people. And a lot of the people making the most noise aren't transgender themselves. Many of them are not at all transgender, they're just the most egregious version of SJWs available. Some of them identify as transgender, but really only qualify under the very broadest umbrella term for it and don't have any gender dysphoria at all.

 

[Manger Douse]

No. I'll start again.

1) Someone in this thread wrote that the school board had effectively ordered the local police to "arrest, drag away, and prosecute" a member of the public because he had been annoying them (the school board) with his line of questioning.

2) I responded, using a pretty common literary device (satire). The underlying meaning of my post was that a) it was hugely improbable that the police would have "arrested, dragged away, and prosecuted" a member of the public purely on the say-so of the school board, and b) it was hugely improbable that this man would have been "arrested, dragged away, and prosecuted" simply because he'd been asking annoying questions of the school board.


Your point on the charges of which this man was ultimately convicted.... is irrelevant to my argument above. In addition, I can assure you that police frequently (and entirely lawfully) intervene forcibly to remove people whom they deem a threat to public order... and that these people ultimately don't get convicted of anything constituting a "serious" crime. Many of them don't even get charged with anything: once they've been removed from the situation, and warned about their future conduct, the best solution may be to release them without charge. But that doesn't mean that the police weren't acting entirely correctly (using their own judgement, not anyone else's) to forcibly remove those people from volatile situations.

I see - well, if the school board knew but didn't choose to tell the police that yes, Scot Smiths daughter had been raped by a trans student as he claimed but instead let the police (and posters in this forum) believe Smith was just some anti-trans weirdo and this is what got him the jail time, then yes, I would consider that to be on the say-so of the school board. I grant there's a bit IF there

 

[Emily's Cat]

I've already given you my opinion on this*. And I repeat: were you expecting - or hoping - that I would endorse/support these people's actions? And you think it's correct/appropriate to formulate an opinion on transgender rights based upon this (outlier) incident, do you? Because if we're playing that little game, I can easily find you plenty of other isolated incidents of disgraceful acts/opinions against transgender people.

But we don't play that game now, do we? Because any attempt at serious debate doesn't involve those sort of stupid, childish, reductive antics, do they? Or maybe from your perspective they do?

To be honest, I'd really be pleased if you would speak against the tactics being used as unacceptable, and representative of an attempt to silence and intimidate females. I'd be a bit mollified even if you'd simply express a modicum of concern and compassion for the females subjected to such behavior and abuse.

Rather than just "interesting".

* This isolated incident.

There's a point where a whole bunch of "isolated incidents" really do start to form a pattern.

I'd say that since every single attempt by females to gather and discuss female issues or female rights is met by an "isolated incident" of transgender rights activists harassing, threatening, insulting, and sometimes physically attacking them, it constitutes a bit more than an "isolated incident".

 

[d4m10n]

Either Smith's daughter was indeed assaulted by a GNC male student (as he claims) or the idea of an GNC male student committing sex crimes was made up somewhere along the way (as the Supt. claims).

More info just dropped on this case.

https://twitter.com/jessesingal/status/1450565898402734088

 

[Emily's Cat]

You think this is the first time females were told to suck it for daring to claim their own spaces?

I find it intriguing that the same argument gets used in the "while black" threads, but there it's considered to be a bad argument. When every single situation in which a black person is mistreated or harmed for no good reason is presented as "an isolated incident" by the same person, we usually see the board progressives dressing them down.

But here, it's the board progressives using the same approach.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

More info just dropped on this case.

https://twitter.com/jessesingal/status/1450565898402734088

The Daily Wire being dishonest, now that's a shock!

 

[LondonJohn]

One might wonder why a parent might get a bit angry when another adult in the room claims that their female child is lying about having been raped... It's really a mystery.

But no, no. Please carry on blaming the parent of the raped teenage female for being 'disruptive' when they were told their child was probably lying about it, and the school board insisted that it hadn't happened. You seem to have a really solid moral platform for this. 'Right side of history' and all that.

You've completely misunderstood/misrepresented what I've been saying on this. Well done!

 

[LondonJohn]

To be honest, I'd really be pleased if you would speak against the tactics being used as unacceptable, and representative of an attempt to silence and intimidate females. I'd be a bit mollified even if you'd simply express a modicum of concern and compassion for the females subjected to such behavior and abuse.

Rather than just "interesting".




There's a point where a whole bunch of "isolated incidents" really do start to form a pattern.

I'd say that since every single attempt by females to gather and discuss female issues or female rights is met by an "isolated incident" of transgender rights activists harassing, threatening, insulting, and sometimes physically attacking them, it constitutes a bit more than an "isolated incident".

Why the hell do you think I have the responsibility of being some sort of spokesman on these issues? You have no right whatsoever to want me to speak out on anything. Anything. My god, the pomposity.

(Not to mention the fact that - perhaps you missed it among the self-righteous haze - I did indeed give my (negative) opinion on these people and their actions. Not that I had any obligation at all to do so, though.)