Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[Matthew Best]

The emerging narrative: father whose daughter was raped in a school girl's bathroom by a cross-dressing gender-fluid boy (not trans) objects to school board member's public claim at the aforementioned meeting that no such assault had ever or would ever happen, gets arrested as per above and maliciously prosecuted by overzealous progressive county officials as part of ongoing effort to minimize or cover up the rape; meanwhile juvenile rapist supposedly under house arrest was instead quietly moved to another school where he sexually assaulted another girl.

This has already been addressed, like this:

It's a moral panic, there's nothing substantive to their claims.

So there's nothing to see here, thank goodness!

 

[TurkeysGhost]

So there's nothing to see here, thank goodness!

These are the same people asserting that teachers across this country are engaged in a plot to indoctrinate students with marxist ideology. Terse dismissal is all these complaints really merit, pretending otherwise is giving them more credit than they are due.

 

[Elaedith]

For those in the UK*, 'Nolan investigates' just released a series of podcasts on BBC sounds, reporting their 18-month investigation into the influence of Stonewall in UK institutions.

The BBC just announced this week they will quit the Stonewall 'diversity scheme'. I don't know if this is related.

*Not sure if those outside the UK can access this: if not, it may be possible by downloading the BBC Sounds app.

 

[d4m10n]

I found a local news story, if that helps. It appears we're looking at the possibility of a serial offender.

Terse dismissal is all these complaints really merit, pretending otherwise is giving them more credit than they are due.

We've come a long way since #BelieveWomen, eh?

 

[Myriad]

These are the same people asserting that teachers across this country are engaged in a plot to indoctrinate students with marxist ideology. Terse dismissal is all these complaints really merit, pretending otherwise is giving them more credit than they are due.

There are different versions of the story. The one originally reported was that the protesting man's intention was to speak against Critical Race Theory, and that he was angered during side conversation prior to speaking when another parent challenged his point. The story the man recounts is that he intended to speak to challenge the claim made minutes earlier by a school board member that no incidents of sexual assault in school bathrooms had ever happened and further angered when another "parent-activist" told him his daughter was lying.

As he never got to speak, we don't know for certain which narrative is closer to true. It appears to me by all evidence (including a rape kit) that his version is far more plausible and likely. Why would a parent whose daughter had been forcibly penetratively raped and then just heard the officials make a claim completely to the contrary, suddenly develop an overriding concern about Critical Race Theory?

That reporting now looks like gaslighting. "Nothing to see here" indeed. Look over there instead! That guy the cops dragged out? Don't trouble yourself, he was a witch. I mean, an anarchist. Or, wait, what decade is this? Oh, sorry, he was a racist. Possibly a terrorist too; we'll be looking into that.

It's not the first rape that concerns me in reporting this, though of course I regret its occurrence and hope the rapist receives some appropriate combination of punishment and treatment. (Good luck with that.) The rapist didn't get access to the girl in the bathroom because there was a progressive gender policy, he got access because there was an unguarded door, which has always been a characteristic of school bathrooms and probably always will be. What concerns me is the press gaslighting, the maliciously harsh prosecution of the father, and the Catholic Church style hushed lenient treatment of the rapist that gave him opportunity to assault again.

Maybe there's another explanation, but what it looks like is throwing a rape victim's father and another girl under the bus. One was reported as a violent racist in the national press, and the other became an assault victim. All so as not to upset that county's new progressive agenda and make sure the proles didn't vote the wrong way. Progressives ruining progressivism.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

There are different versions of the story. The one originally reported was that the protesting man's intention was to speak against Critical Race Theory, and that he was angered during side conversation prior to speaking when another parent challenged his point. The story the man recounts is that he intended to speak to challenge the claim made minutes earlier by a school board member that no incidents of sexual assault in school bathrooms had ever happened and further angered when another "parent-activist" told him his daughter was lying.

As he never got to speak, we don't know for certain which narrative is closer to true. It appears to me by all evidence (including a rape kit) that his version is far more plausible and likely. Why would a parent whose daughter had been forcibly penetratively raped and then just heard the officials make a claim completely to the contrary, suddenly develop an overriding concern about Critical Race Theory?

That reporting now looks like gaslighting. "Nothing to see here" indeed. Look over there instead! That guy the cops dragged out? Don't trouble yourself, he was a witch. I mean, an anarchist. Or, wait, what decade is this? Oh, sorry, he was a racist. Possibly a terrorist too; we'll be looking into that.

It's not the first rape that concerns me in reporting this, though of course I regret its occurrence and hope the rapist receives some appropriate combination of punishment and treatment. (Good luck with that.) The rapist didn't get access to the girl in the bathroom because there was a progressive gender policy, he got access because there was an unguarded door, which has always been a characteristic of school bathrooms and probably always will be. What concerns me is the press gaslighting, the maliciously harsh prosecution of the father, and the Catholic Church style hushed lenient treatment of the rapist that gave him opportunity to assault again.

Maybe there's another explanation, but what it looks like is throwing a rape victim's father and another girl under the bus. One was reported as a violent racist in the national press, and the other became an assault victim. All so as not to upset that county's new progressive agenda and make sure the proles didn't vote the wrong way. Progressives ruining progressivism.

I guess I'll just have to take your word for it, as I'm not seeing a citation for this anywhere.

It would be one hell of a coincidence that this guy picked CRT freakout night as the time to air his unrelated grievances with the school board.

 

[rdwight]

I guess I'll just have to take your word for it, as I'm not seeing a citation for this anywhere.

It would be one hell of a coincidence that this guy picked CRT freakout night as the time to air his unrelated grievances with the school board.

What a silly take. Do you think school board meetings happen every week or something? Anyway.

Loudon Local news on it

Smith, a Leesburg-based plumber, was attending his first School Board meeting with his wife, Jess. Less than a month prior, on May 28, the Smiths say their daughter was sexually assaulted in her Stone Bridge High School bathroom by a fellow student.

Gives more details but see no reason to reactively dismiss things based on 'timing'.

 

[theprestige]

I guess I'll just have to take your word for it, as I'm not seeing a citation for this anywhere.

It would be one hell of a coincidence that this guy picked CRT freakout night as the time to air his unrelated grievances with the school board.

Maybe the grievances aren't unrelated. Maybe it's not only true that a genderfluid male has been raping adolescent females and the district is covering it up, but the same district folks are also going about with marxist indoctrination. Maybe the coverup and the indoctrination are part and parcel of the same toxic ideological push from public educators in America. Maybe the guy doesn't just have a beef with them on this one particular issue. Maybe he has a beef with them across the board, because of their across the board toxicity.

Anyway, "who cares if his daughter got raped by a gender-abuser? As soon as I apply a bigoted stereotype, that problem just goes away!" is a terrible look for pro-trans activism. I don't think you could make the cause look any more monstrous if you were actually false-flagging on purpose.

 

[Emily's Cat]

When I say "female" I mean "born with ova" and that definition is grounded in biological facts about the process of sexual reproduction.

When Boudicca90 says "female," she means...???

Has boobs and estrogen in their system, so far as I can tell. Granted, the estrogen is exogenous, introduced artificially, and that exogenous hormone prompted the growth of breast-like tissue outside of the range of typical pubertal growth.

I submit the following question for consideration: I take natural porcine thyroid for an imbalance. Thus, there is porcine hormones in my system. Does that make me a sow or a boar?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Sport is pretty much my hard limit - it's overwhelmingly a question of biology and not of identification. "An integrated NBA" (what a concept) would mean no professional basketball for biological females. Even with "segregated" sports a mere self-identification as the criteria would mean the end of any chance of being a top athlete for basically all biological females in almost all competitions. That is clearly not acceptable.

But for most social activities cultural gender category works quite well - even if self-identification as the sole criteria will continue being problematic in several areas. Though mostly of course we are talking about theoretical cases and in actual life self-identification is just the first step of many for most trans people.

In most social activities, I agree completely. Treat people with respect and dignity.

There are some instances where I object, and where I think sex matters more than gender identity. Even there I am fairly flexible. Generally speaking, if a penis ought not to be in that situation, then either keep said penis covered or stay out of that situation altogether.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I found a local news story, if that helps. It appears we're looking at the possibility of a serial offender.

Something I find interesting is that the local and liberal articles don't touch on the perpetrator being transgender or gender fluid at all. They focus solely on the sexual assault, and make no mention of the policies that allowed that assault to occur in the first place.

 

[Emily's Cat]

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/feds-colorado-plan-cover-gender-affirming-care-80547634

I have a higher likelihood of getting a hysterectomy approved if I claim I'm transgender than if I stick with the truth that I'm at high risk of a recurrence of sever fibroids, as well as high risk of endometriosis, and I'm past childbearing age so I'd really like to remove the organ that could cause me severe internal damage and harm, including potentially death.

The damned thing already tried to kill me once. But for whatever reason, having actual female health problems related to a uterus is not a sufficient reason for approving a hysterectomy... but feeling like I'm a man would work.

I might have to claim a non-binary gender identity just so I get appropriate female health care.

 

[Emily's Cat]

These are the same people asserting that teachers across this country are engaged in a plot to indoctrinate students with marxist ideology. Terse dismissal is all these complaints really merit, pretending otherwise is giving them more credit than they are due.

Two young females raped in school - it's just a moral panic and doesn't merit any attention at all?

Genuine question SuburbanTurkey: Do you have any care or compassion for females of the human species at all? Or do you consider females to be less human and less deserving of respect and rights than penis-bearers?

 

[Emily's Cat]

For those in the UK*, 'Nolan investigates' just released a series of podcasts on BBC sounds, reporting their 18-month investigation into the influence of Stonewall in UK institutions.

The BBC just announced this week they will quit the Stonewall 'diversity scheme'. I don't know if this is related.

*Not sure if those outside the UK can access this: if not, it may be possible by downloading the BBC Sounds app.

I've been following the diaspora of government bodies from Stonewall with some satisfaction for a while now.

Also been enjoying the herds of right-hoarding dinosaurs. That's been brilliantly entertaining.

 

[rdwight]

Something I find interesting is that the local and liberal articles don't touch on the perpetrator being transgender or gender fluid at all. They focus solely on the sexual assault, and make no mention of the policies that allowed that assault to occur in the first place.

Seems an unfair assumption. Can't discount the possibility, but the description of the second incident, involving pushing a female student into an empty classroom seems to point to the brazen attitude of the assailant. If you are willing to rape another student in an open bathroom in school, I don't think it necessary that he was allowed in by a gender policy. Might have given an opportunity he didn't have, but not sure we can simply assume it is the case.

 

[xjx388]

So, I've had recent, very personal experience with the whole gender thing. We are currently estranged from my daughter and her family, for reasons that are irrelevant. I still see her posts on Facebook, though. On "National Coming Out Day," my daughter came out as non-binary/genderfluid. She says she sometimes feels womanly and sometimes feels manly and sometimes neither. She says she is fine with "he/she/they," as they all fit and she doesn't want to give people a hard time when she doesn't even exactly know what she's feeling just yet. She says this doesn't really change anything about her, she isn't "trans" per say, but she doesn't feel like any one particular gender.

Now, growing up, my daughter never really expressed any confusion about her gender. However, she has always been kind of free thinking on these matters. She will often dress as male celebrities/characters for Halloween. She also dresses as "sexy" female characters (I don't mean that to sound weird, but that's what they are - "sexy" nurse, slave Leia, etc). Day to day, she usually chose female clothing but was also comfortable in t-shirt and jeans. Outside of costumes, she has never dressed or acted more "manly," whatever that actually means. So I've always known that she thinks very openly about gender matters but I've never seen any signs of some deep-seated gender conflict in her from birth to age 30, when we stopped talking. We were very close before that and we spoke openly with each other when she reached adulthood, so I think I would have had some clue . . . but maybe not?

She has always been a staunch supporter of LGBTQIA+ rights. We have had some disagreements about this because, full disclosure (and this really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who has seen my arguments on this forum), I used to have some pretty wrongheaded ideas about these things (eh, I probably still do, but I'm trying to be a better person). In fact, arguing with her is one of the reasons I've changed my mind on a lot of these issues.

I think my daughter is an excellent example of the whole "social contagion" thing. It's cool to be queer. She has a natural affinity to those causes and many of her favorite celebs have come out (Demi Lovato, Eliot Page) and she wants to be a part of it on a more personal level. As she herself says, this changes nothing about her fundamentally -she's still a mom, still a wife, still female. She just doesn't always feel like a woman or a man. I really don't think she's saying anything different than what Emily's Cat shared about herself earlier or even what I have said about myself. What's happening with my daughter is that she is from a different generation that 1)has a much more open mind about sexuality and gender and 2) feels this narcissistic need to label themselves, whereas EC and I are from a generation where there was more taboo around sexuality and gender and we were kind of forced to conform to certain roles.

TL;DR: My daughter coming out as non-binary only reinforces, because I know her on pretty deep level, my view that much of this current shift in "personal gender identity" is rooted in narcissism and social dynamics, rather than any deeply-held internal "identity."

 

[p0lka]

I think that is a misrepresentation in the case at hand. Boudicca is applying "female" biologically, and says she is female for reasons of biology. You may decide she is mistaken, but she is not conflating biology with gender identity. The distinction in terms remains.

She's just wrong then?

 

[p0lka]

So, I've had recent, very personal experience with the whole gender thing. We are currently estranged from my daughter and her family, for reasons that are irrelevant. I still see her posts on Facebook, though. On "National Coming Out Day," my daughter came out as non-binary/genderfluid. She says she sometimes feels womanly and sometimes feels manly and sometimes neither. She says she is fine with "he/she/they," as they all fit and she doesn't want to give people a hard time when she doesn't even exactly know what she's feeling just yet. She says this doesn't really change anything about her, she isn't "trans" per say, but she doesn't feel like any one particular gender.

Now, growing up, my daughter never really expressed any confusion about her gender. However, she has always been kind of free thinking on these matters. She will often dress as male celebrities/characters for Halloween. She also dresses as "sexy" female characters (I don't mean that to sound weird, but that's what they are - "sexy" nurse, slave Leia, etc). Day to day, she usually chose female clothing but was also comfortable in t-shirt and jeans. Outside of costumes, she has never dressed or acted more "manly," whatever that actually means. So I've always known that she thinks very openly about gender matters but I've never seen any signs of some deep-seated gender conflict in her from birth to age 30, when we stopped talking. We were very close before that and we spoke openly with each other when she reached adulthood, so I think I would have had some clue . . . but maybe not?

She has always been a staunch supporter of LGBTQIA+ rights. We have had some disagreements about this because, full disclosure (and this really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who has seen my arguments on this forum), I used to have some pretty wrongheaded ideas about these things (eh, I probably still do, but I'm trying to be a better person). In fact, arguing with her is one of the reasons I've changed my mind on a lot of these issues.

I think my daughter is an excellent example of the whole "social contagion" thing. It's cool to be queer. She has a natural affinity to those causes and many of her favorite celebs have come out (Demi Lovato, Eliot Page) and she wants to be a part of it on a more personal level. As she herself says, this changes nothing about her fundamentally -she's still a mom, still a wife, still female. She just doesn't always feel like a woman or a man. I really don't think she's saying anything different than what Emily's Cat shared about herself earlier or even what I have said about myself. What's happening with my daughter is that she is from a different generation that 1)has a much more open mind about sexuality and gender and 2) feels this narcissistic need to label themselves, whereas EC and I are from a generation where there was more taboo around sexuality and gender and we were kind of forced to conform to certain roles.

TL;DR: My daughter coming out as non-binary only reinforces, because I know her on pretty deep level, my view that much of this current shift in "personal gender identity" is rooted in narcissism and social dynamics, rather than any deeply-held internal "identity."

As a parent, it can be difficult to keep up with the kids.
I agree with 1),
I think 2) the need to label oneself is a trans thing. The lbq and other letters don't seem to have any such need.

lbq and the rest seem to be fighting against labels, t wants to conform to a label.

 

[Distracted1]

Has boobs and estrogen in their system, so far as I can tell. Granted, the estrogen is exogenous, introduced artificially, and that exogenous hormone prompted the growth of breast-like tissue outside of the range of typical pubertal growth.

I submit the following question for consideration: I take natural porcine thyroid for an imbalance. Thus, there is porcine hormones in my system. Does that make me a sow or a boar?

I posited a similar question in post 1067. I got no takers.

 

[d4m10n]

I posited a similar question in post 1067. I got no takers.

People who are unwilling to forthrightly define their terms are automatically suspect, IMO.

(Perhaps I've read too much Orwell.)