The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

[Vixen]

You cite Linde variously as the authority for some observation that demands explanation and as a liar whose testimony should be disbelieved. What criteria are you using to determine when Linde is lying and when he's telling the truth?

Liars often typically include an element of truth to give weight to their lies. So yeah, no surprise Linde knows how to string out a story - criminals are used to it - a hatred for the police and an arrogant and contemptuous attitude that they are cleverer.

 

[JayUtah]

You've got it - I picked this up from the Scots, who have some jolly good expressions, ye ken?

I'm of Scottish descent, and I'm not impressed.

 

[LondonJohn]

It wasn't me who said the ship heaved, it was Linde, who described it as the ship rising upwards. Linde lied a lot but where did he get that from?

From the ship transitioning from the lowest point of ocean swell to the highest point of ocean swell*? Just maybe?


* A transition which might easily, on this night and in this storm, have resulted in the ship rising by as much as 6-7 metres in as little as a couple of seconds.

 

[JayUtah]

Liars often typically include an element of truth to give weight to their lies. So yeah, no surprise Linde knows how to string out a story - criminals are used to it - a hatred for the police and an arrogant and contemptuous attitude that they are cleverer.

Please answer my question instead of pontificating.

 

[Vixen]

Except that we proved that we do and you don't. Do you really want your head handed to you again over this?

You. Are. Not. A. Scientist.

Oh. yes. I. am. Let that stick in your craw.

 

[GlennB]

No dumber than someone who thinks applying a welding tool to solid steel will melt it.

"As opposed to brazing and soldering, which do not melt the base metal, welding is a high heat process which melts the base material."

"Welding is a fabrication process that joins materials, usually metals or thermoplastics, by using high heat to melt the parts together and allowing them to cool, causing fusion. Welding is distinct from lower temperature metal-joining techniques such as brazing and soldering, which do not melt the base metal. "

We look forward to your inevitable bizarro wriggling.

 

[Vixen]

Then you need to put it down again. It's an absurd affectation that just makes you sound pompous.

It is a perfectly good word.

 

[Vixen]

I'm of Scottish descent, and I'm not impressed.

You'll agree Rabbie Burns had a way with words?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I disagree. If the smugglers are a sovereign state, then it doesn't matter if you bump off an operative here or there.

Russia can't go to Estonia and bluff their way around as it is no longer their country. Russia has no power in Estonia, just as it has no power to bluff its way into England to demand X,Y or Z.

So you don't think there's any point "sending a message" by murdering the people the other side sent to do the job? They'll just ignore that kind of message and send some more victims, already knowing, as you insist, that someone is bound to tip the Russians off so the next lot will get murdered too.

You really don't think this stuff through. You just say the next thing that comes into your head.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I disagree. If the smugglers are a sovereign state, then it doesn't matter if you bump off an operative here or there.

Russia can't go to Estonia and bluff their way around as it is no longer their country. Russia has no power in Estonia, just as it has no power to bluff its way into England to demand X,Y or Z.

Because prior to the fall of the Soviet Union, Estonia was a part of the USSR. Soviet tactics had been to populate the Baltic States with...ethnic Russians. Hence, 25% of the population are Russian and likewise, the ruling class. You want to get on pre 1991? You go to a Naval School...in Russia (as did Captain Andresson). Thus when the Soviet Union fell, the native Estonians - who naturally fostered a lot of resentment towards their oppressors - couldn't wait to kick them out and to clip their wings. However, much of the Estonian ruling classes were still loyal towards their old masters, especially the military. And they hadn't forgotten how Sweden had shipped them back to their deaths whilst seeking desperate refuge from an angry vengeful Red mob post WWII.

The Estonian head of defense Hermann Simm, turned out to be a Russian spy selling secrets to the Russians and jailed for high treason in 1996. JAIC star witness, Silver Linde was jailed in Finland for drug smuggling. When Sweden smuggled Former Soviet Union materiel and space progs out of Estonia on a passenger ferry, given most of the crew were Estonian, of course, someone was watching and reporting back to the old stalinists.

Make your mind up. Was Russia still able to exert influence in Estonia or not? They can when it suits you, they can't when it doesn't.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It wasn't me who said the ship heaved, it was Linde, who described it as the ship rising upwards. Linde lied a lot but where did he get that from?

It was you who blamed a bomb. Everyone else recognises it was a wave which made the ship heave violently. You fantasize it was a bomb.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Somebody asked how come the Russian didn't just admit to it.

Wrong. They asked why the Russians didn't make it obvious, just as they did with Skripal. Estonia looks like an accident. You can't "send a message" by arranging an accident.

 

[JayUtah]

Oh. yes. I. am. Let that stick in your craw.

No, you're not, cute pictures aside. We had a lengthy discussion some weeks ago about scientific methodology and the null hypothesis. You did not fare well. And here you are again trying to play teacher and "educate" the rest of us on how to do science. Do you grasp the fact that some of us actually do for a living what you're frantically trying to waffle your way through? Do you realize that some of us have practiced for decades what you remember poorly from your days at school learning to be an accountant?

We've endured 160-some pages of your arrogant "Because I say so" arguments that stand quite apart from discoverable facts. At what point will you apprehend that you will be challenged on them and expected to substantiate them with more than just evasive bluster?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

This youtube video tells you exactly which part was examined.

We're talking about the part which was microscopically examined and reportedly showed the effects of high heat. Was it a part that had previously been repeatedly welded? That video does not appear to say.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Quote re Linde:

EFD

Linde had been at sea ten years as of the date of the disaster. So he should at least know the difference between a wave and a bang and likewise the type of motion caused by same.

He recognised the sound of the lock breaking was not a normal part of the sound of the bow crashing down into a wave trough and rising again.

 

[Vixen]

So you don't think there's any point "sending a message" by murdering the people the other side sent to do the job? They'll just ignore that kind of message and send some more victims, already knowing, as you insist, that someone is bound to tip the Russians off so the next lot will get murdered too.

You really don't think this stuff through. You just say the next thing that comes into your head.

This is the considered opinion of several investigative journalists. It does not originate from me.

 

[Vixen]

Wrong. They asked why the Russians didn't make it obvious, just as they did with Skripal. Estonia looks like an accident. You can't "send a message" by arranging an accident.

The only person who thought it an accident was Carl Bildt.

 

[Vixen]

No, you're not, cute pictures aside. We had a lengthy discussion some weeks ago about scientific methodology and the null hypothesis. You did not fare well. And here you are again trying to play teacher and "educate" the rest of us on how to do science. Do you grasp the fact that some of us actually do for a living what you're frantically trying to waffle your way through? Do you realize that some of us have practiced for decades what you remember poorly from your days at school learning to be an accountant?

We've endured 160-some pages of your arrogant "Because I say so" arguments that stand quite apart from discoverable facts. At what point will you apprehend that you will be challenged on them and expected to substantiate them with more than just evasive bluster?

I do not say anything, unless asked for my opinion. I am simply reporting the current affairs topic of Estonia being reinvestigated due to a documentary by Henrik Evertsson discovering a huge hole in the starboard which was not mentioned by JAIC. It is a matter of fact that there was an expedition to the site in July by Arikas and again by Margus Kurm, in September.


Learn to distinguish between pontification and current news.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

You've got it - I picked this up from the Scots, who have some jolly good expressions, ye ken?

I actually am Scottish. I rather like "Haud yer wheesht; yer brains are full o' mince".

 

[Vixen]

We're talking about the part which was microscopically examined and reportedly showed the effects of high heat. Was it a part that had previously been repeatedly welded? That video does not appear to say.

The Swedes are now also examining the bow visor so we'll just have to be patient for the finer details.

However, I am quite sure a Professor who has written research papers in Metallurgy specialising in Steel and Aluminium is familiar with the concept of welding and has taken such considerations into account.