Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[Meadmaker]

These are circular and ridiculous.

Suppose somebody says "I'm a homosexual because I identify as a homosexual. I'm not romantically or sexually attracted to people of the same sex as myself. I'm only ever attracted to people of the opposite sex. ...

I'm not sure, but I think LJ was trying to say that a guy could seek out and engage in sex with other guys, but unless he identifies as a homosexual, then he isn't a homosexual.


Which is....an interesting take on the meaning of the word.

 

[Elaedith]

I'm not sure, but I think LJ was trying to say that a guy could seek out and engage in sex with other guys, but unless he identifies as a homosexual, then he isn't a homosexual.


Which is....an interesting take on the meaning of the word.

I know that's what he's trying to say, but what he actually said is that being homosexual is now divorced from any such requirement, and therefore the term is completely meaningless. As with 'woman'.

 

[theprestige]

How do you feel about:

"A homosexual is someone who identifies as a homosexual"

Last time I checked, someone identifying as a homosexual didn't require any change from me in how I treat them.

On the other hand, I have a very clear idea of what they mean by it: They're sexually attracted to others of the same sex.

We still have no clear idea of what "identifying as a woman" actually means (other than identifying as female).

or

"A Miami Dolphins fan is someone who identifies as a Miami Dolphins fan"?

There's a lot of ways to approach this one. Personally my feeling is, "you do you". Again, as long as there's no requirement for me to treat them any differently because of their self-identity.

On the other hand, I know a lot of people take their sports fandom very seriously, and may have strong opinions that a True Dolphins Fan loves or hates certain players, reveres certain games and disparages others, shows up religiously for certain events, etc. But this is all internal squabbling between sects of hardcore fans. It places no burden or expectation on public policy or outsider attitudes.

Just as the third-waves, radfems, and TERFs are welcome to fight amongst themselves about what a Real Feminist is, so too are the trans-inclusionary extremists and radicals welcome to fight amongst themselves about what a True Transsexual is. As long as it stays between them, and doesn't burden science or public policy with absurd religious demands, I don't care.

Note, importantly, that in both cases, a person might engage in certain behaviours and other traits that may be associated with those groups.... without actually identifying as a member of that group or being defined as such.

The convenient thing about homosexuality is that it doesn't really matter what traits or behaviors are associated with it. You're sexually attracted to the same sex, you're sexually attracted to the same sex. You don't need to give your homo-erection a special name in order to enjoy the fruits of its labor with a like-minded individual of compatible sex. And the only demand homosexuality makes on public policy is that public policy stay out of the bedroom.

None of this is true at the current state of the controversy over transsexuality.

 

[Boudicca90]

Thought about posting this in the cancel culture thread, but decided it fits just a bit better over here.

https://twitter.com/ProtransLobby/status/1446114184194789377

[imgw=640]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBGhLtwVgAk0mGf?format=jpg&name=large[/imgw]

She deserves nothing better. And hopefully the same will be done to all gender-critical (TERF) bigots.

Keep your transmisogyny to yourself or face consequences, just like with any other prejudice.

 

[Meadmaker]

I know that's what he's trying to say, but what he actually said is that being homosexual is now divorced from any such requirement, and therefore the term is completely meaningless. As with 'woman'.

Yeah. So you can be a homosexual without being attracted to the same sex, and you don't have to be a homosexual just because you are attracted to the same sex.

Can I be a Cubs fan if I root for the Mets? That seems sinful and wrong.

If I self identify as a lesbian, do I have to self identify as a woman? And if someone says I'm not a lesbian, can I call it hate speech?


If a lesbian falls in the forest, does it make a sound?

 

[The Atheist]

Ummmm... you may think you're justified in this belief, but you're not.

Let me just count the number of ***** I give.

Yep, still zero.

Because you've apparently given yourself the right to decide that Hubbard "is not a genuine transwoman". What do you think gives you that right?

Me.

I don't think anyone else has any say at all over what I think. Act, sure, but since the Thought Police don't exist yet, I'll think whatever the evidence suggests I should think, and in the case of Hubbard, I think it's as fake as a $3 bill. Do you know people who knew it for years before it finally realised it was never going to make the Olympics as a bloke and therefore fail in its lifelong goal? I certainly do.

And gosh, just like that it's competing as a woman.

And presumably you also believe that the administrators of weightlifting in New Zealand have been either duped or (to use that mantra born of zealotry) "policy captured" in accepting that Hubbard is indeed a transwoman? Because, logically and in a very real sense, your ire should be aimed specifically and solely at them, not at Hubbard.

If you'd been reading the thread, you'd have seen that they have indeed been the target of my ire, and the reasons for that. They choose to pick Hubbard as a woman not because they have any regard at all for trans rights, or even because of any social pressure. They did it solely because they're so desperate for world recognition they're happy to turn a blind eye to a freak masquerading as a woman.

Thankfully, we have an actual woman weightlifter of world class now, so they'll be hoping everyone forgets their disgraceful conduct when the next round of cash gets dished out.

Do you think that any given person should have the right to determine, for example, that Zachary Quinto is not a "genuine" homosexual man? Or that Elliot Page is not a "genuine" transman?

I'm pretty sure there aren't separate sports categories for gay and hetero athletes, so yet again you've come up with a piss-poor analogy. If a lesbian plays rugby, she's still a woman and competes against other women on a level playing field. I repeat, it's going to take a woman being killed in a contact sport by some bloke in panties before some people recognise how absurd the idea of birth biology not mattering.

And even then, they probably wouldn't change their position.

I don't know who Elliot Page is.

 

[Boudicca90]

No one identifies as homosexual or heterosexual. People ARE homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual etc. Horrible definition.

You identify as the label that best fits you. Sexual orientation, like most things, is on a spectrum. And a person can fall anywhere on that spectrum.

A person can have same-sex or opposite-sex attraction, or a combination of both, or neither. I never found 'homosexual' to be an accurate label for me, but I used it because there was never anything more accurate at the time. You were considered either gay, straight, or bi, when there are a wide variety of orientations out there. Now there is a term that fits me: Polysexual

 

[Meadmaker]

I don't know who Elliot Page is.

Ellen Page was an actress who played Vanya in The Umbrella Academy.

Ellen is now Elliot. Rumor has it that Elliot will continue playing Vanya in a new season of the show currently under production.

 

[Ziggurat]

You identify as the label that best fits you.

Ceci n'est pas une pipe. The label is not the thing, the map is not the territory.

Identifying as a homosexual did not make you a homosexual.

 

[Boudicca90]

Let me just count the number of ***** I give.

Yep, still zero.

Great! That makes two of us.

I hope all gender-critical (TERF) and transphobic people suffer every time a trans woman wins over a cis woman. We will be judged no matter what, if we win or lose, so screw 'em.

We will win this fight and compete fully with our fellow women. And the bigots will just have to cry about it. Too bad.

 

[Ziggurat]

Ellen Page was an actress who played Vanya in The Umbrella Academy.

Ellen is now Elliot. Rumor has it that Elliot will continue playing Vanya in a new season of the show currently under production.

Will the character also become trans? Or will Elliot have to pretend to be a woman? So confusing...

 

[Boudicca90]

Ceci n'est pas une pipe. The label is not the thing, the map is not the territory.

Identifying as a homosexual did not make you a homosexual.

No, a person has same-sex attraction, but they have to decide for themselves if that makes them strictly homosexual.

And these are medical terms, no one is going around calling themselves 'homosexuals'. Gay, queer, etc. but not homosexual. It's considered a slur.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Great! That makes two of us.

I hope all gender-critical (TERF) and transphobic people suffer every time a trans woman wins over a cis woman. We will be judged no matter what, if we win or lose, so screw 'em.

We will win this fight and compete fully with our fellow women. And the bigots will just have to cry about it. Too bad.

No, you won't. Women's sports will cease to exist, and you'll have your Pyrrhic "victory."

 

[Olmstead]

You identify as the label that best fits you. Sexual orientation, like most things, is on a spectrum. And a person can fall anywhere on that spectrum.

A person can have same-sex or opposite-sex attraction, or a combination of both, or neither. I never found 'homosexual' to be an accurate label for me, but I used it because there was never anything more accurate at the time. You were considered either gay, straight, or bi, when there are a wide variety of orientations out there. Now there is a term that fits me: Polysexual

It's not a label, it's a descriptive term. The fact that the terms are insufficient to cover the whole spectrum of possible sexualities doesn't turn them into labels. Homosexuality is still attraction to the same sex, and heterosexuality is still attraction to the opposite sex. We might not have a term for "attracted to most men, but only to women who were born on a Tuesday", but bisexuality covers that well enough for most purposes.

In all cases, how you identify has nothing to do with it. You still ARE something. The most you can say is that there was no descriptive term which adequately described your own experience, but that is true of many things.

 

[Boudicca90]

No, you won't. Women's sports will cease to exist, and you'll have your Pyrrhic "victory."

No, women's sports as you want to keep them will cease to exist.

Personally, I see sports going completely gender neutral in the future, so you think it's bad for you now? Wait until non-binary and genderfluid people start competing more.

 

[Boudicca90]

It's not a label, it's a descriptive term. The fact that the terms are insufficient to cover the whole spectrum of possible sexualities doesn't turn them into labels. Homosexuality is still attraction to the same sex, and heterosexuality is still attraction to the opposite sex. We might not have a term for "attracted to most men, but only to women who were born on a Tuesday", but bisexuality covers that well enough for most purposes.

In all cases, how you identify has nothing to do with it. You still ARE something. The most you can say is that there was no descriptive term which adequately described your own experience, but that is true of many things.

No, bisexuality doesn't cover anything well. That's why we have labels like pansexual, polysexual, and omnisexual now, which many of us find fit far better than bisexual.

 

[Olmstead]

No, women's sports as you want to keep them will cease to exist.

Personally, I see sports going completely gender neutral in the future, so you think it's bad for you now? Wait until non-binary and genderfluid people start competing more.

So you don't care about professional female athletes, okay.

 

[Meadmaker]

Will the character also become trans? Or will Elliot have to pretend to be a woman? So confusing...

I've seen pictures of Elliot. I think he can still pass as a woman. A cute woman at that.

How the scriptwriters will handle it? Who knows?


I'm sure it will cause outrage somewhere.

ETA. I googled Elliot Page. No info about Vanya's future self identification, but I didn't realize how accomplished Elliot had been (as Ellen,) in movies. He even got a best actress Oscar nomination. There was a time you may have thought that sentence included a typo.

 

[Meadmaker]

So you don't care about professional female athletes, okay.

I'm pretty sure Boudicca isn't all that concerned about any athlete.

(Based on previous statements)

 

[Boudicca90]

So you don't care about professional female athletes, okay.

I think I've said this before, but I don't care about athletes in general. They tend to get paid far too much for how little they contribute to society.

Professional sports as a concept can die and I'd be fine with that.

I'd personally be more than fine if I didn't have to deal with all the Olympics crap every 4 years.