• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

Status
Not open for further replies.
Vixen said:
No, a lorry loaded with explosives would not work because you cannot take your vehicle onto a ferry without proving you are the registered owner or that you have ID and authorisation to drive it abroad. One carload of young people who turned up in their employer's car to board the vessel were denied entry because the driver hadn't realised he needed to get the paperwork from his employer to gain entry on board. Yet having said that, there was one container lorry that was found to have gained entry to the ferry yet it had no registered driver.

An explosive device OTOH is cheap and effective. Semtex is like plasticene in the hand and - like many plastics - only becomes dangerously explosive if it is wired to detonate. So yes, if you were a military agent wanting to send a message to the west to stop smuggling out Russian state secrets, then you use military means which are strategically placed devices, or similar. Your aim is to stop the ship - and your state secrets - from reaching their destination and it true military style you don't just make one attack, you have a follow up one to make darn sure. Just as the German ship carrying civilians and military personnel in Operation Hannibal in 1945 was struck three times by the Soviets, once in the bow, once in the engine room and once in the auxillary quarters so a precise military operation would be used by the elite speznats.

"The first was nicknamed "for the Motherland", the second "for Leningrad", the third "for the Soviet people", and the fourth, which got jammed in the torpedo tubes and had to be dismantled, "for Stalin"."

wiki

So saying that it could have been done another way is just silly. The Russians were sending a message to Sweden and Estonia and they wanted them to get the message.

Think about ti, a series of three explosions in rapid succession went off at Swedish midnight in international waters and within 48 minutes it was at the bottom of the seabed.

ibid
Click to expand...

You think the Russians couldn't fake up the right paperwork for a lorry on a ferry?

How did they get enough explosives aboard to plant their bombs?
 
Vixen said:
I'll bear it in mind, should I ever decide to write a screenplay.
Click to expand...

That's essentially what you're doing in this thread. It's not as if anything you've supplied has the slightest value in terms of an investigation. It's a hopeless mess of hackneyed conspiracy clichés and contradictions.
 
Vixen said:
See photo of unexploded device attached to the bow in the Rockwater videos, as highlighted by Brian Braidwood.

Why would the crew necessarily spot it? How do you know the crew or one or two of the crew were not insiders?
Click to expand...

What is your evidence for that being an explosive device?

Would you volunteer to blow up the ship you were a passenger aboard in a storm?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Vixen said:
No, a lorry loaded with explosives would not work because you cannot take your vehicle onto a ferry without proving you are the registered owner or that you have ID and authorisation to drive it abroad. One carload of young people who turned up in their employer's car to board the vessel were denied entry because the driver hadn't realised he needed to get the paperwork from his employer to gain entry on board. Yet having said that, there was one container lorry that was found to have gained entry to the ferry yet it had no registered driver.

An explosive device OTOH is cheap and effective. Semtex is like plasticene in the hand and - like many plastics - only becomes dangerously explosive if it is wired to detonate. So yes, if you were a military agent wanting to send a message to the west to stop smuggling out Russian state secrets, then you use military means which are strategically placed devices, or similar. Your aim is to stop the ship - and your state secrets - from reaching their destination and it true military style you don't just make one attack, you have a follow up one to make darn sure. Just as the German ship carrying civilians and military personnel in Operation Hannibal in 1945 was struck three times by the Soviets, once in the bow, once in the engine room and once in the auxillary quarters so a precise military operation would be used by the elite speznats.

"The first was nicknamed "for the Motherland", the second "for Leningrad", the third "for the Soviet people", and the fourth, which got jammed in the torpedo tubes and had to be dismantled, "for Stalin"."

wiki

So saying that it could have been done another way is just silly. The Russians were sending a message to Sweden and Estonia and they wanted them to get the message.

Think about ti, a series of three explosions in rapid succession went off at Swedish midnight in international waters and within 48 minutes it was at the bottom of the seabed.

ibid
Click to expand...


This is all excellent fantasy material for inclusion in your Netflix screenplay. More of the same, please!
 
Captain_Swoop said:
You think the Russians couldn't fake up the right paperwork for a lorry on a ferry?

How did they get enough explosives aboard to plant their bombs?
Click to expand...

You might just as well ask, 'Why did they not:

  • send out bomber aircraft
  • launch a sky rocket
  • drop a team of specialist paratroopers by parachute
  • send along a barrage of hang-gliders with AK-rifles

Fact is, it is not easy to bring down a ship unless you have expert military knowledge.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
HUOTE=Vixen;13620211]See photo of unexploded device attached to the bow in the Rockwater videos, as highlighted by Brian Braidwood.

Why would the crew necessarily spot it? How do you know the crew or one or two of the crew were not insiders?
What is your evidence for that being an explosive device?

Would you volunteer to blow up the ship you were a passenger aboard in a storm?
Click to expand...

A timed device doesn't need you to be present.
 
Arikas Team Release the First Seven Videos of their Expedition

5.10.2021

Released today, the Arikas videos which are some six hours in total.. They can be viewed from their official investiggation website here:

https://www.ojk.ee/et/sisu/pl-estonia/esialgne-hindamine

The plan to go back in Spring and carry out a diving exercise, especially of the car deck to see whether the vehicles confirm with the consignment notes.

In recent tests conducted in July seven diving video content is now published three a couple of hours of video to some recordings of Estonia Accident Investigation Center (Eesti Ohutusjuurdluse center) on the website.

According to the center, the footage was recorded by the diving company Tuukritööde on 14–15. July 2021, when images and objects from sonar images were viewed on the Estonian wreck using diving robots.

<snip>


According to the Estonian Accident Research Center, the first video of the seven dives last summer worked in the stern of the wreck, where the condition of the rudder and rear ramp, among other things, was checked. Video views were recorded near the seabed on the right side of the wreck. Damage to the bottom of the ship and to the stern was also recorded.

<snip>

The second dive video moves on the car deck and in the middle of the ship, which part was also of interest to a private research team that ended its work last week. Margus Kurm, the head of the research group, considers the finding that the sliding doors to the car deck in the middle part were intact and closed to be essential.

<snip>

A new research group is already planned
According to Lännen Media, the Estonian Commission of the Riigikogu of the Estonian Parliament is already preparing to send the next investigation team to the Estonian wreck.

The purpose would be to further clarify the contents of the car deck and in particular whether the cargo entered in the Estonian consignment note is still on board.

Recent Swedish data also suggest the possibility that the Estonian bow visor may have been under pressure from the explosion. With the new information, the official investigation led by the Estonian Accident Investigation Board will be subject to tougher expectations than before.
Click to expand...
TS

Looks like they've brought it out quickly because Kurm intends to bring out pics ASAP as well.
 
Vixen said:
And lie, he did. And quite blatantly.

Think about it he, the fourth engineer and the motorman were in a life raft together in their survival suits at 1:24 which was... about the same time Tammes, third officer, made his May Day call. Ahem.

And what about the senior officers. They all had the posh cabins on the top deck near the front of the ship. This included Lembit Leiger, Chief Engineer, Arvo Piht, Second- Captain, Bogdanov, Chief Medical Officer, an off-duty captain travelling with his wife. These people who were in the prime position to escape were actually listed as survivors and their names appear on a pilots logbook. So suddenly they were 'disappeared'.

Anyone sniff a rat..?

So the guy in the engine room, Deck 0, Treu, third engineer, who only escaped up the funnel at 1:30 and the three or four junior crew all survived (in their survivor suits) yet their much more experienced colleagues with good access to rescue equipment all mysteriously drowned...<fx brummie accent, 'Yes, mate!'>
Click to expand...

Crew cabins were not 'posh' They were on the deck below the lifeboat deck. They were up there because they are out of the way and handy for the bridge.
It's a ferry, not a cruise ship.

Junior crew would be the first away in lifeboats or rafts. Every boat or raft has crew members detailed to it is their job to be the first ones in to rafts and boats.
Engineering crew would have been the first to know the ship was beyond saving as soon as the power went. Junior engineers would have been sent up by the senior officers as soon as it was obvious they weren't needed. Senior engineers would have been the last ones out of the machinery spaces, the Chief would have reported to the bridge.
 
Last edited:
Vixen said:
And look who the crew member was who made a statement he was at the car ramp at 1:00 when he heard a huge bang which caused the ship to swell up and almost knock him off his feet. This crew member changed his story many times. He was jailed a couple of years later for drug smuggling. The prosecutor wanted eleven years. Just sayin'.
Click to expand...

He didn't suffer blast injuries or deafness. Just sayin' your idea is fantasy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom